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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Monday, 03 December, 2018 - 19:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hopefully a member may be able to help me with the window winder mechanism on my 20/25. I have just replaced the passengers window as the previous owner had try to glue the laminated glass, I presume due to the parting of the 2 sheets, which had subsequently resulted in a large section of dried glue between the laminate. Before I replaced the glass the window was easy to wind up, but always dropped to about half way. When removing the door card I noticed that the channel at the bottom of the glass was not attached,of which I thought problem solved, however, since replacing the glass the window winds up ok, but then acts like its on a spring with the winder spinning until the pressure has been released off the chain, any ideas?. The glass that I had made is exactly the same size as the original. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 03 December, 2018 - 20:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just speculating and trying to visualize...
Have you replaced the door card yet? Photos of the assembly and mechanism will help visualize and analyze. Is it simply a chain mechanism or the coiled spring mechanism, or some combination?
Clearly something has changed. It cannot be said that it had previously been assembled properly as the tendency to drop indicates that there is insufficient spring pressure to hold it up. I can visualize by reverse engineering that as the window is lowered, a spring of some sort is wound up to provide assistance with lifting the window and holding it in place at the top. Sounds like the mechanism has been assembled so that the reverse is happening and the spring is being wound as you wind window up and is thus pulling the window back down rather than assisting with lift and holding at the top.
Just speculating in the absence of any other photos or information. There has to be an answer though.

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Monday, 03 December, 2018 - 20:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Christian its greatly appreciated, for what I can see it seems that it works by a chain mechanism, however, I haven't replaced the door card so I will investigate the mechanism further tomorrow to see if there is a spring, perhaps its located behind the window winder. I will take photos and post them if I have no luck.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 15:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christian, I investigated the window winder mechanism with no sign of any spring just cogs and a chain, so I decided to remove the door card on the drivers side and it was clearly obvious what the problem is, the chain on the passengers window is to short with the lower cog in the wrong spot compared with the drivers side, another mess-up by a so called car restorer, not sure where I could obtain another chain so any ideas would be most welcome.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1019
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 16:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I would be interested in photos of the two different doors with panels removed and especially the mechanisms. Maybe will pique some ideas(s). Meanwhile I am curious what holds window at any given position and what is creating the unwinding effect first noted as I do not visualize how chain length would affect those issues.

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 18:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christian I will arrange to take some photos as I have already removed the mechanism from the passengers door, I did notice that because the lower cog on the passengers window is a lot higher than the drivers side the point where the chain joins catches on the lower cog causing the chain to dislodge, hopefully when I send the photos it might be a bit clearer.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 18:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christian photo 1 - mechanism passenger door - photo 2 - bottom of winder mechanism on passenger door delineating the lower cog and the chain joiner and roller that slots into the bottom rail of the glass, which catches on the lower cog when winding andis significantly higher than the drivers door - photo 3 the winder on the drivers door showing the chain length and lower cogphoto 1 - winder mechanismphoto - 2 lower section showing cog photo - 3 drivers door mechanism
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1021
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 19:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmm...
Wish the photos were larger!
and are they oriented as when in place...bottom of photo at bottom of door?
Unfortunately the third photo seems to show that the mechanism is not visible...being between the frame and the interior door (i.e. facing the outside of the door) rather than facing towards the interior of the car and between the frame and the door card.
Sorry to say while the photos are interesting they are not sufficiently illuminating to prompt my brain to grasp what is going on.
Wish I could...but not this time.

P.S. Tell me again what happens when the chain connector hits the cog and causes the chain to slip off the cog. Once off, how does it get back on?

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 19:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I appreciate your comments, I tried to upload larger photos, but they would not accept them as they were too large and therefore would not send, those are the only size that I could send unless I upload and send them one at a time. The photo facing outside the door seems to have uploaded next to photo 3, sorry at an age where I am not into computers, the photo running horizontal outside the door is the bottom section of photo 1, which shows the cog and pulley mechanism that fits onto the lower frame of the glass. The passengers window has never worked properly and use to just drop down half-way, of which I now know is due to the chain slipping of the cog, of which I did not find that out until I removed the door card to replace the glass. As I wind the window up the chain is under significant pressure compared with the drivers side, the window winder then spins until the glass is about half way down, as I wind the window down the joiner gets caught on the lower cog causing the chain to buckle and slip off, whereas the cog on the drivers side is a lot lower, with the window stop about 5cm higher therefore preventing the joiner from catching. I have looked at re-positioning the lower cog on the passenger window, but then the chain is far to short. Any ideas would be appreciated.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 19:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Resize photos to (what is it?) 640x480 pixels maximum.
If necessary send larger photos one at a time. Sorry, I am at an age where small objects and objects that require that I twist my head for orientation give me a headache or neckache...even with the necessary reading glasses!!

Only idea is to reorient the chain so that the connector does not catch the cog.

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 20:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I will try again to upload, fingers crossed this time. I have attached different photos, tried to reorient the chain, but without any luck, will send photos one at a time in case they get mixed up. photo - 1 passenger mechanism
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 20:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

photo - 2 drivers side showing window lowest point and cog below window stop
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 20:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

photo 3 - drivers door showing chain length and lower cog
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 04 December, 2018 - 20:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think i might have done better this time, I suppose I should have taken a photo of the mechanism on the passengers door before I removed it, however, the chain is significantly shorter with the lower cog higher up than the drivers side with the window stop on the passengers door nearly touching the lower section of the cog, which seems to be causing the problems. I must thank you Christian for your time I am scratching my head why there is such a significant difference between the two mechanisms, I would have thought they they would have been identical.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1025
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 05 December, 2018 - 06:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I still do not visualize the operation, for instance, where the excess chain goes as the cog moves up the slot and lifts the window. This is one of those times when physical presence, previous experience, or a video would be in order. Sorry.

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Wednesday, 05 December, 2018 - 09:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christian, I fully understand not an easy issue to describe by photos alone, but I thank you for perhaps making me think about the workings of the mechanism as there is nothing in my manual. With regard to the excess chain there is none, the 3 cogs form a triangle, therefore as you wind the window either up or down the links on the chain just follow the teeth on the cogs. I have decided to see if I can obtain a longer chain as I feel that the chain is far to small and moving the lower cog may solve the issue, all I have to do now is locate another chain, perhaps easier said than done. I will let you know how I go.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1030
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 06 December, 2018 - 07:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think I see. If the cog does not move then there must be a second cog not visible that engages a rail in the window bracket.
Refer to the photo posted Dec 4 at 8:31. There is a slot that appears to be about 8" tall. Is that the amount of travel? Is the window in up or down position in that photo? You might help illustrate the mechanism by repeating that photo in three positions up, middle, down.

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Thursday, 06 December, 2018 - 15:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian the lower cog in the (photo 1) that I sent showing the 8" slot, should be much lower down in the slot as it is on the drivers window (photo 3 near the bottom of the door frame), however, because the chain is too short on the passengers window I cannot lower the cog into the position that it should be, the window stop should then be above that lower cog (you can just see it poking slightly out to the right on photo 3 with 2 bolts holding it on) so the chain runs freely, which is not happening on the passengers window, as the window stop when bolted on (photo 1 you can see the two bolt holes where I have removed the stop) is level with the cog, causing the chain to dislodge. I have been fortunate to buy a chain exactly the same linkage today at a specialist bearing and chain shop, so I will give that a go over the weekend and let you know how it goes.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Monday, 10 December, 2018 - 15:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian. Moved the lower cog further down and re-positioned the window stop, attached the new chain and with fingers crossed connected the window to the pulley and all worked well with no distortion or catching. All I need now is some door card clips, but I will place an advert on the wanted section to see if I can obtain them in Australia. Many Thanks
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1037
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 10 December, 2018 - 18:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Charles...
Thanks for posting the resolution. Beyond simply fixing things that break, putting right prior "repairs" adds to the excitement. Wish I had been able to better visualize the mechanism. Someday I'll need to fuss with mine as well and possibly similar mechanism. We'll see. Who is your coachbuilder?

.
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Charles Aldous-Ball
Experienced User
Username: chaf29

Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2018
Posted on Monday, 10 December, 2018 - 19:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Park Ward was the coachbuilder then it was modified in the forties by Rippon Bros aiming for a Silver Wraith appearance, I understand that the car is illustrated in the book Rolls Royce in the Sunburnt Country, I did manage to get a photocopy of the page, but after finding out the price of the book I decided I could spend $800 on something that I could use.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1038
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 11 December, 2018 - 06:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you got the page with your car's photo, you got the only page that matters!

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