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Graeme Söderlund
Prolific User
Username: graemeaus

Post Number: 60
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Monday, 16 January, 2017 - 02:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Noticed that several 20 HP's have been advertised on Ebay and Carsales.com - both listed as Goshawks. Interesting to note that there are only 2 recorded cars with the Goshawk plates shown as arriving in Australia, one belonged to Judith Merlin (Bisley) and neither of the cars on ebay is fitted with the Goshawk plate.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2204
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2017 - 01:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Goshawk" was the code name used during development of the Twenty and is commonly applied to the 20/25, 25/30, & Wraith. See the Goshawk Society of the RROC-US webpage.

Brian
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Graeme Söderlund
Prolific User
Username: graemeaus

Post Number: 61
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2017 - 09:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well aware the name was used during the development of the smaller HP cars, but records show that there were only two cars brought into Australia with the Goshawk plate! The cars being advertised are 20 HP's and do not have the separate plate with that name. In my 60 odd years of association with RR I have only seen one such plate and that was on the car Judith Merlin rebuilt after it was destroyed by fire.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2206
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2017 - 01:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Grame,

You seem to be missing my point that "Goshawk" can be, and is, not limited to the two to which you refer.

It is used for a series of RRs, and quite commonly so.

You're construing the term a lot more restrictively than I would, particularly in a sale listing.

Brian
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Graeme Söderlund
Prolific User
Username: graemeaus

Post Number: 62
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2017 - 02:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, to my knowledge the only cars that carried a "Goshawk" plate were the very late 20HP's from 1928/29 and had to carry an identification plate to allow for sale in France. All of the company paperwork for 20 HP's only referred to them as 20 HP's. None of the other 20HP cars carried the Goshawk plate which was fitted alongside the chassis plate. My own 20 HP GKM60 was late 1928 and did not have this plate. It has long been acknowledged in Australia that only two cars ever came here with the plate and in all the years of the Twenty in Australia, they were all known as 20 HP's and never referred to as Goshawks.

I consider (as do others) that advertising the two cars on Carsales.com as Goshawks is incorrect and should not be done. The Company did not use the name to distinguish a model or models.

Graeme.
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Timothy Gregory
New User
Username: tim

Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Sunday, 14 October, 2018 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

with regard to the 20 HP being designated the name Goshawk, my impression, in accord with the book by John Fasal, was that this name was code for the initial overhead-camshaft engine 20HP project; which Royce abandoned in favour of the conventional OHV engine.
The new design engine had proven to be less quiet running and hence unsuitably audible.
Once this twin-cam wizardry had been superceded the name for the project had subsided as well.

Perhaps because the new twin-cam held such high hopes that the subsequent Twenty offering could never measure up to the ambitious 'Goshawk' idiom.
In any event this no-name model is the Goshawk.

The term Goshawk naturally reflects an idea of the lesser bird of prey as against the Ghost which by analogy would be an Eagle. Goshawk is also a word akin to Ghost due to the sound and consonants in their spelling.
The Eagle image had long been in use by Daimler.

The point of the Goshawk name was to give a name to the new model along with the HP rating, since the name Ghost was in parlance already and discounted any need to refer to cars by their HP rating which is more of a statistic.
Note that engine parts were given names and code words as well as numbers.
The reasoning for the code-words given to parts was because words are more efficient to recall.
Albeit a Twenty and Goshawk may now imply any small HP on the Goshawk chassis even right up to the Wraith.
Goshawk seems a worthy name for the model, arrived at either by Claude J. or possibly Royce himself.

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