| Author | Message | ||
     John Rowney Yet to post message Username: johnrowney Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2015 |
I am looking at getting an electric overdrive installed on my 1938 Wraith WXA68. I have googled the subject, but I am unsure of the best way forward. Any suggestions as to my best option would be appreciated. | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.48.187 |
Contact Tim Payne at overdrives.co.uk. It is a vexed subject,full of problems, and if your rear axle is at all dodgy, ie worn wheel drivers and hubs, the O/D will amplify the defects. It is a bit like putting champagne in a cracked terracotta bottle. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 502 Registered: 5-2015 |
By electric overdrive I assume you mean epicyclic with electric solenoid. And not a flux capacitor like the Deloran in back to the future. These are fitted between the gearbox output shaft and the prop shaft. The arrangement of the gearbox output shaft bit which also drives the brake servo will need modification which will be very expensive. I assume this is a 4 speed manual gearbox. The engine will have enough grunt to easily pull away in second gear. Which means that the final drive ratio could be raised say by 10%. The obvious way is to change the crown wheel and pinion. Or fit bigger wheels. The harmonic balancer or crankshaft damper must be correct. The reason is that if the final drive gearing is raised then the engine low revs at low road speeds can cause shunting in the gear train. A way out is to increase fly wheel weight. Is there 1938 Wraiths with overdrive boxes 5 speed. If so then try to find a second unit and other bits. Becareful because these carz are renowned for drive train smoothness which is becsuse of very carefulky chosen ratios and component masses. The modern version of keeping drive lines smooth at low revs is the dual mass flywheel. I saw a 1930s car on Chasing Classic Cars that had a two speed rear axle. That would be very flash on a Wraith. I am jealous I want a Wraith. Funny comment by a funeral director. They had a 1950s Wraith as a hearse. The rear springs were very hard. It rode quite bad at speed. He said his passengers in the back never complian. | ||
| John Rowney New User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2015 |
Christopher and Bob. Thanks for your feedback, and apologies for the tardy response. I have been in Bali for 3 weeks, and am just getting back into the swing of things in Oz again. I tried to contact Tim Payne by phone a couple of times in the UK, but was unsuccessful. Hopefully my email will get a response for him. I drove Wraith WRB60 last Friday (thanks, Peter) and it is fitted with an overdrive installed by A&S Engineering of Alton England in 2007. It was terrific. I rang them, but they only do fittings at their facility in the UK. I also contacted Nostalgia Cars in the UK, who advertise kits on the net. However, they discontinued these kits about 12 months ago, and have not deleted the info on the website. They suggested Overdrive Repair Service in the UK. I spoke to Overdrive Repair Service, but they only supply the Laycock unit to others. Overdrive Repair Services referred me to Tim Payne – so it went a bit of a circle ending up with him. Hopefully I will be able to contact him soon and let you know the outcome. John Rowney | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1683 Registered: 6-2009 |
John, You may also want to contact another Tim at Dennison-Jayne Motors located just outside Philadelphia in the USA. I believe that they've installed overdrive systems in these cars. If not, they should be able to point you to other information sources about doing the job or having it done. Brian | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.17.170 |
Hi John, Tim has a very young family now (ga ga ga)but he has the only firm that I contact. ODS are close to me in the UK and supply about 50%of the actual devices, originally bolted onto the rear of synchro boxes and converted into sealed units. The de Normanville part of it is an adaptation of part of the de Normanville epicyclic safety gearbox of the 1930,s, and only ever fitted to some of the Humber cars.A more successful device was the contemporary Wilson pre-select gearbox,one of which in a Daimler car, with the Daimler version of the fluid flywheel, was bought by GM, and was the inspiration behind the GM Hydramatic family. Oscar Banker had nothing to do with the Hydramatic. A word of caution. You must fit an inhibitor switch into the gate selector, such that the overdrive may only be engaged in 4th gear, and moreover,the energising switch must NOT be engaged until 4th speed has been selected. A sudden drop of 2 ratios is too much for the small size of the unit. When engaging the switch, the clutch must be dipped as if selecting 5th speed. The only fluid to use in the overdrive is ATF. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Rowney New User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2015 |
Hi Christopher and Brian I finally got on to Tim Payne and had a good chat about what I needed. He sent me a comprehensive response of what information he needed. Once I have got rid of visitors here in a few days, I will measure things up, take photos and send the info to Tim. Hopefully I should be able to get everything I need from him. I will leave Tim at Dennison-Jayne Motors on the reserve list at this stage, since Tim Payne looks like he can supply all my needs. Cheers John Rowney | ||
| John Rowney New User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have sent Tim Payne photos of the underneath of my Wraith and photos of a mate's Wraith which has an overdrive fitted. Hopefully some feedback from Tim soon to clarify some measurement issues. | ||
| John Rowney New User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have finally sent Tim Payne dimensions required for ordering the overdrive unit. I expect that there will be some more correspondence before we finalise things and get the overdrive unit and associated equipment finalised | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 755 Registered: 5-2015 |
Another option is a 5 speed gearbox from a modern rear wheel drive car complete with modern diaphragm clutch. What side is the gear stick on. If its in the middle then it wouldn't look out of place. Most 5 speed boxes have 4th as direct 1:1 ratio. This means that in 4 th gear the rpm at a given speed will be the same as the old box. However some have 5th as direct which makes the conversion pointless. Engines with a good spread of torque don't need lots of ratios. Is there a higher final dtive ratio available. This not only drops the rpm but also increases the distance between intermediate ratios. If the car will easily pull away on idle in first then the car will be ok with a higher final drive. But to make a crown wheel and pinion is probably more expensive than the overdrive option. Can the overdrive be fitted to the axle. I think the extra unsprung weight wouldn't be noticed. A two speed axle if you like. Any chance of photos of the bits and bobs. I find this sort of stuff very interesting. | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 109.148.48.240 |
Robert, The car has rod brakes, operated by a friction servo driven by and fitted on the left side of the gearbox. The gear change is a knuckle grazing right hand gate change. Unlike the MK VI tribe where the overdrive can only be successfully fitted in the centre of the cruciform,there is plenty of prop shaft length in the Wraith to avoid the vibration The idea of the axle mounted overdrive was never thought through and is totally nonsensical. A new gear set would be in the region of £4000, and as a side note the Wraith gear sets are being used to "upgrade the Phantom 111. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Frequent User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2005 |
John With Tim Payne you are at the right address for overdrives. You do not fit the overdrive to the rear axle, adding more unsprung weight. It is fitted just behind the gearbox and attached to the chassis. You will have to shorten the drive shaft to make room for the overdrive unit. I have such a Tim Payne overdrive fitted to my 20/25 hp for 13 years now and am very pleased with it. It makes a relaxing long distance touring car out of an otherwise undergeared car. My car has enough torque to engage the overdrive from 15 to 20 mph upwards. I drive an estimated 90% of my mileage with the overdrive engaged. | ||
| John Rowney New User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have just got to check some flange dimensions to feed back to Tim Payne, then he will proceed to fabricate the kit for the whole system. Looks like I am on my way! | ||
| ChristopherCarnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.176.214.79 |
Yes, you need UJ adaptors to connect the modern Hardy-Spicer type to the older R-R version. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have finally received the overdrive kit from Tim Payne. There were two mountings missing which just arrived this morning. I will start this weekend installing the overdrive. Hopefully all will be well so I can drive the Wraith from Queensland to the RROCA National Rally beginning 12 May. I am hoping to join the Overlander group leaving from Queensland on 5 May. If things go wrong, I guess I will have the original driveshaft to put back in and go a bit slower. | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 109.149.198.144 |
Engage overdrive only when in 4th gear, a sudden change from 3rd to 4th with the solenoid switch at "ON" will result in a damaged overdrive. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have just returned from the RROCA national rally in Bendigo in the Wraith. Unfortunately the overdrive kit did not have mountings correct for the Wraith - just the mountings for a "C" section chassis with the members running parallel to each other. The Wraith has a box type chassis system in an "X" configuration. After some correspondence with Tim Payne we have agreed basically on what needs to be done. Tim has only done one overdrive for a Wraith quite some time ago and he has no details of what he did. I will need to have two new brackets fabricated to bolt to the chassis and mount the system on these brackets. It will probably take some time to do as I rather busy doing other things for the next month or so. I will take photos as the project progresses slowly, and keep all informed. | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.48.25 |
John, The Wraith as you say has a cruciform chassis like the post war cars, and the Wraith gearbox has a rather long tail shaft extension, which extends into the cruciform itself. When the overdrives are mounted on MK VI,s, it is invariably just aft of the "V", which makes for a rather short prop shaft at rather an extreme angle. If the output and input angles are greater than 3 degrees, internal acceleration and deceleration forces within the UJ,s make for intolerable vibration. This is why the only position to install an overdrive in the epw cars is actually within the cruciform itself, to eliminate vibration and noise problems, which plague the EPW cars with overdrives. The other prewar cars do not suffer this problem as the prop shaft is a single part, and much longer. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have had a difficult time with the Wraith. After the RROCA rally in May, I had huge leaks of oil from the driver's side rear wheel by the time I reached Sydney. Nevertheless we got to the Gold Coast, and shortly afterwards I drove the car to Steve Sparks at NBS Services in Brisbane. Steve was to stop the leaks and attend to some other items following advice from Tom Clarke at the rally. Steve found that the oil seals on the diff were leaking badly, the rear hubs needed work to overcome imbalances, all engine mountings were damaged and needed replacement, the steering arms needed replacement, the caloristat was not working and was epoxied in place, the radiator needed replacement and other items. Eventually all these jobs were completed, and Steve was able to install the overdrive. As I mentioned previously, the cruciform chassis presented problems to fit Tim Payne's overdrive.  . Steve fabricated a large curved support piece to be bolted to the chassis member and welded a support bracket to the support piece. Tim's clamp was attached to this bracket and the overall structure was installed. The installation shown below shows that Tim's design supports the Overdrive unit from a cross member using two supporting fittings and aided by rubber mountings.  Steve had to install his own limit switch on the fourth gear slot rather than Tim's supplied limit switch, and also had to modify Tim's speedo extension. In addition, Steve installed a pilot light to indicate when power was supplied to the overdrive solenoid. When initially testing the overdrive, Steve found that the overdrive engagement had some lag. When I drove it home, everything was OK until I got near home (about 70 miles away). The overdrive engagement lag returned and there was an occasion when the overdrive was late in engaging and then jumped out by itself. I had some correspondence with Tim and did the following. 1.Checked the movement of the overdrive as the driveshaft rotated - at .0016" it was much less than Tim's upper limits - all OK. 2.I ground down a 1" spanner to fit the solenoid and backed off the tightness of the solenoid. This could be a problem causing distortion. I then drove back to Brisbane and the Overdrive worked well until I came off the freeway to drive on other roads to Steve's garage. The overdrive lagged regularly upon engagement. On my return journey, the frequency of the lag reduced. I will need to drive the Wraith quite a few more miles to be convinced that all lagging problems have been overcome. Overall, the Wraith when in overdrive, drives extremely well. In conjunction with all the other work that Steve Sparks did on the Wraith, the overdrive makes the car drive like a Rolls-Royce should - smooth, quiet and an absolute delight to drive. Tim Payne's design looks good, but if you purchase a kit from him, you should ensure that the support bracket requirements for unusual chassis configurations are well understood. Tim now has the photos of Steve's work, so that any similar installation should be easier. I will let everyone know how things go with another 1000 miles or so on the clock. | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2015 |
I thought you might like to see what Wraith WXA68 looks like.  | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Prolific User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2005 |
I have had similar symptoms as John describes with my overdrive. It started last year when the overdrive sometimes was hesitant to shift. With the time the interval between switching and actual shifting got longer and longer to the point the shifting point was no more predictable. This meant shifts with a non-RR typical jerk (I declutch when switching the OD on or off). I found that for the first couple miles in the mornig the OD shifted o.k. But as soom as the running gear was warmed up the malfunction got worse and worse to the point it did not shift at all. I then took the OD down and had it overhauled by a local specialist for automatic gearboxes. I have only done a few test miles since the overhaul and everything seems to work again. So what was the problem with the OD? The actual fault could not be pinpointed with certainty. Most probably there was an internal oil leak that reduced the oil pressure required to perform the shift (cold oil = less leakage = more pressure, hot oil = more leakage = insufficient pressure). For good measure the solenoid had been changed too, just in case... Cost of the rebuild: Approx. US$ 2200 plus my labour (approx. 4 hours plus 1 hour for a helper for both dismantling and refitting). Jonas | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2015 |
Jonas Since mine is a new unit, I am sure a rebuild is not necessary. Before I get another 1000 miles up, I read further from Tim's latest email. He suggests switching the Overdrive in and out a lot. "Cruise at 60 kph, light on the throttle, switch it on, when it engages, switch it off. Keep at it. You don't need to use the car clutch if you go gently. If switching in or out causes a nasty bang, drive slower. In this way we are hoping to work any foreign bits through the system and into the filter, where they can stay!" I will give this a go tomorrow, and see what happens. John | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have now had an opportunity to try Tim's suggestion of switching the overdrive on and off without using the clutch when switching. I went for a drive to a mate's farm in the Gold Coast hinterland, and everything went well. No delays or unexpected action. The next day I took friends to a pub on Mt Tamborine for lunch and afterwards back to the coast through Canungra. The overdrive worked perfectly - looks like the problem is solved. Whew! Now I can just enjoy driving WXA68 with a good overdrive making higher speed journeys much more pleasant. | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2015 |
Since my last posting things have got worse. Like Jonas, first thing the overdrive works well, but after about 3 miles, it is slow engaging overdrive, and it will jump in and out of overdrive at lower speeds, but perform OK at higher speeds. I also have a vibration in the drive train (intermittent) independent of the gear, or whether the clutch is in or out (approx. 40 to 60 km/h). I have sent a couple of emails to Tim Payne who has not replied. When I rang him on Monday, he wasn't there, but one of his people suggested checking whether the solenoid works well when it is out of the Overdrive Unit. I took it out today, and it works instantaneously whether on the bench or under the car. The throw of the moving part of the solenoid is about 1.4 mm. I don't know whether this is OK or not. I will be sending another email to Tim today. Another couple of things I noticed with solenoid, was that the lips around the O-rings had some slight scoring and the O-rings themselves did not appear to be above the constraining lips. The O-rings, to my way of thinking might not be sealing correctly and oil is bypassing where it shouldn't. I await Tim's comments. Hopefully I will know better tomorrow, and let you know of progress if any. I am not taking the Wraith from the Gold Coast to the RROCA National Rally in Canberra next week. I have my MkVI Bentley Special B25KL to rely on for my ride down south, after she has spent about 21 months getting lots of things sorted out. John | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2015 |
Tim Payne is on holidays. Hopefully I should hear something after I return from Canberra in about 2 weeks time. | ||
| Christopher Unregistered guest Posted From: 5.80.18.233 |
What oil are you using, and it is always advisable to use a rubber Giubo instead of the Hardy Spicer U/J? (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2015 |
Christopher I am using Auto Transmission Fluid as recommended by Tim Payne. I am afraid I don't know what a rubber Giubo is, or what a Hardy Spicer U/J is. John | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1121 Registered: 9-2004 |
A rubber Giubo is shown below. Maybe a Layrub would be better.  A UJ is a metal universal joint with no give for this application. | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2015 |
I know I am new at this car game, but I don't understand where the rubber Giubo goes. Is it in the middle of the universal joint? My problem is that the vibration, which I assume Christopher and Patrick are referring to, is intermittent. A universal joint vibrating would be independent of gear selected including overdrive. The vibration I experience is also independent of load. The intermittent nature of the vibration (only occurring when overdrive is not engaged) suggests that the problem is in the Overdrive. As soon as overdrive is selected the vibration disappears, again independent of load. John | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have finally sorted out the overdrive. Tim Payne and I had a good conversation a couple of months ago, and he agreed to send me a new overdrive unit. Steve Sparks fitted the new overdrive and all appears to be running as it should. I replaced the rubber suspension bushes on the overdrive holding bolts with springs supplied with the new overdrive. Suspected overdrive vibration is now non-existent. There is no dropping in or out of overdrive and the change in and out of overdrive is instantaneous. I have had a few short trips in the car without problems. It may be some weeks before I can fit in a long trip, but I am very confident that all is well. While in the UK at the RREC National Rally at Burghley House in May, I caught up with Tim Payne, and he said that some solenoids had been a problem. He now has a test rig for them. Since my original solenoid looked in rather poor condition, I have now posted him the solenoid - it will be interesting to hear the results of the test. I am looking forward to the trip in the Wraith in April next year to Clare, South Australia, for the RROCA National Rally. I imagine this will be about a 5000km round trip which will be a really good proving trip for the overdrive | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Prolific User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 138 Registered: 2-2005 |
I come back to my posting of 16 Dec 2016 where I described problems with my overdrive that led to a costly overhaul by a local specialist in automatic transmissions. Last autumn I only could do a very short test drive with the repaired overdrive before the winter hibernation, when everything seemed o.k. On the first outing this spring (May) the very same sympoms that led to the overhaul returned again. I tried to contact Tim Payne unsucessfully to try to pin down the problem, as I mistrusted the local specialist. When I was unable to get hold of Tim I had no other choice but to return not only the overdrive, but the whole car to our local specialist. What a surprise when I got a call two days later to pick up the car. They fitted a new solenoid valve and everything is well since. Both the old solenoid and the new one fitted last October were too stiff inside, so that the electromagnet could hardly move the valve. So our findings reflect exactly what John Rowney describes in his above posting. Retrospectively it would not have been necessary to completely overhaul the overdrive for $ 2000, as only the solenoid valve was responsible for the problems. | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2015 |
With the second overdrive installed I drove my Wraith WXA68 to the RROCA National Rally in Clare, South Australia in April. The overdrive performed perfectly until the 2nd day of the return journey, when I had problems getting into overdrive. This was erratic, and I finished the days trip without the overdrive. Stopping overnight at my sister’s place in Bendigo, I spoke to Steve Sparks who suggested that the switch on the 4th year selector could have failed. A quick trip to an auto supplier got me a multimeter and a few other tools and cabling to test things out. Sure enough, Steve was spot on and I bought a replacement switch at Jaycar the next morning. Without a hoist, all the work was awkward, but completed. However, with all my tracing of circuits etc, I had blown the fuse. I couldn’t locate it & Steve couldn’t remember where it was located. I ended up driving back to the Gold Coast without the overdrive - how I missed it! Things got worse. About half way home a grinding noise I started which increased in intensity as the miles rolled on. Eventually we got home, then off to the shed to start work. My first job was to find the fuse location. Basically I had to cut myriad cable ties and trace the overdrive wiring from under the dash. Hours and many expletives later I found the fuse and replaced it A few days later, at a Qld RROCA “Car Park Capers” get together, Steve Sparks in the back of WXA68 with the floor removed, positively identified that the overdrive was the source of the noise. I then replaced the damaged overdrive with the original overdrive, but with the second solenoid. All good! The overdrive is perfect. Obviously the first solenoid was the cause of the initial problem. I still haven’t heard the results of Tim Payne’s test of the original dud solenoid. Thinking back to my serviicing of WXA68 prior to the Clare trip, the ATF in the overdrive was black, which indicates that there was a fault with the overdrive from the start and the originally red ATF was getting cooked. It was just a matter of time for a severe failure to occur. The overdrive is now with Peter Janetzki at JH Classic Restorations for repair. It is likely that there was a bent shaft in the overdrive judging from the behaviour of the unit while turning it over once it was removed fromout the car. I am currently having to rest up in Bali for a couple of more weeks. Hopefully after my return I will be able to report on what was really wrong with the overdrive. | ||
| Christopher Williams New User Username: christopher_williams Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2017 |
John, I dont really have anything to add here, other than thanking you for posting all of this information. I have a 1929 20/25 and have wanted to install an overdrive on it, but may just leave it alone now! | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2015 |
Christopher. I believe I have been plain unlucky. The first overdrive had a solenoid which had not been correctly refurbished - most llikely never touched, judging from its condition. I have just got a preliminary report on the damaged overdrive. A bearing had collapsed which suggests I was very unlucky since I had only done about 2500 miles with it. I know people who have done over 12000 miles in the past few years without problems with the same overdrive setup on 20 hp and 20/25 hp cars. My original overdrive with the 2nd solenoid has given zero indication of any problem & I will be sticking with it. I have recently completed the 20-Ghost Club Prussian tour as navigator for a mate in his 1934 20/25, which had just recently been fitted with an overdrive using a Tim Payne mounting system. It worked perfectly for the 2100 mile trip & returned 17 mpg compared to 14 mpg obtained on a similar trip the year before without the overdrive. |
