| Author | Message | |||
     Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1235 Registered: 5-2015 |
My mates Morris Oxford appeared to have a duff battery because we thought 10 years old and slow starter motor but as I investigated further the starter wasnt slowing down meaning that the battery was holding up. So we bunged in a new starter and whosh the engine flys over and starts in 1 or 2 turns which is excellent. Good battery 10 years and still going. Incidently this car has a powerspark ltd electronic ignition. The starter motor was pulling the battery so hard that the volts dropped so much that the electronic ignition shut down. Poor mate had been hand cranking the engine for 2 days. | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 804 Registered: 4-2016 |
Yes Robert I can see why he would not be happy after 2 days of hand cranking!! | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2360 Registered: 4-2003 |
I wonder how many of our members have ever started a motor vehicle with a crank handle?? My favourite was an old pre-WW2 Renault petrol/kerosine[paraffin] tractor used to belt drive a hammer mill on a friend's dairy farm. Cantankerous but the satisfaction when you finally managed to get it going made up for the inevitable cursing when it decided it wasn't going to co-operate. Of course, it was great fun to task visitors with starting the tractor and sit back and watch the outcome - some people have very short fuses....... | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 807 Registered: 4-2016 |
David, I have not key started on my 25 Chevrolet for years. Hand crank it only. Luckily, it only needs a tad of hand throttle and no choke when it's cold summer or winter. Just need to nudge it when it's hot. It does draw a crowd at the local coffee & cars. Quite a lot of people ask to give it a go, as they have never hand cranked a car before. In this day and age, it's pretty rare. I would like to permanently mount the crank handle as per other cars, this would involve a return spring, to pull it back from the crankshaft pully, and some type of collar to stop it falling back out. At present the handle resides on the back floor. | |||
| David Towers Frequent User Username: xtriple Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2010 |
I had a Yamaha IT 465 (BIG 2 stroke dirt bike)which was kick start only and for a laugh (mine not theirs) I used to let people try and start it from cold. It was a proper old school monster with massive compression and a kick back that could (and did/does) break shins... or the shaft that goes into the gearbox. I loved that bike, but starting it from cold was a nightmare and I was used to kicking over old British bikes as well as pressing a little button. | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 808 Registered: 4-2016 |
Davi, I have seen bikes like these catapult lightweights while trying to start them. Pretty dangerous stuff to the unskilled. I've only had one bike with a kick starter thankfully. | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1237 Registered: 5-2015 |
My 1959 Rover P4 100 had a six cylinder and 2625cc and a starting handle which is about my limit a Morris Minor is easy. Kick start big single take respect or broken bones. I like a kick start as well as electric starter it gives that extra insurance should thy battery be a bit down. Plus giving the engine a kick and electric start at the same time often helps a cold engine spring into life . A mate tried to kick start a 1946 Royal Enfield 350 Model G wearing flip flops. The bike kicked back and his flip flop flew off and he had a big black bruise on this foot sole. The spark plug lead fell off while I was riding and got me in the leg as I came to a halt. Then I locked up the front wheel and ended up on me bum in the middle of a busy roundabout. I love off road riding and have found a 4 stroke single about 400cc ideal. I had a Suzuki SP 400 which was very rugged and simple twin shock set up with 21 inch front wheel 70mph on road so it got me around Dorset with great aplomb. Also good in heavy traffic a sports bike wouldnt be any faster to 30mph. | |||
| Carl Heydon Prolific User Username: car Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2004 |
I often crank Mk VIs for fun and my wife used to enjoy cranking her Minor when parked in town. It sure generates interest. I love having that fall back position. | |||
| ross kowalski Prolific User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2015 |
Patrick, All the bikes I have right now all have step start. Once you get the starting regime down for each in cold, warm and hot soak conditions it's cake. I think step starting engines has gotten a bad rap over the years because the engines trying to be started are running on modern gas that usually is half stale from sitting and people don't start this way a lot so they are rusty at the routine. Get gas in the jugs with choke-on priming kicks, retard the daylights out of the timer, and pop she goes. I made this video because someone on a forum I am a member of was spending a lot of time stepping his ride to life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nce40ONoWw | |||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 466 Registered: 4-2015 |
Like Carl, and simply for the fun of it, I have hand cranked my 1929 Phantom I. Never wrap your thumb around the crank handle in the case of kickback on ANY hand cranked engine. Fires right up when engine warm. Several more cranks if cold. A LOT of compression to overcome though! . | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1062 Registered: 9-2004 |
In true RR fashion the genius of Royce it was made possible to start the 40/50 without the starter motor or the starting handle, no need for cranking the motor as a swing of the advance retard lever caused the distributor to create the fireing spark with mixture throttle etc set. | |||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 467 Registered: 4-2015 |
Patrick... Ah...the proverbial Unicorn of starting techniques. I have found that to be an urban legend as it has never worked for me with any RR or other car with driver operated advance-retard lever. I would have to see it to believe it. | |||
| Chris Gillings Frequent User Username: chrisg Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2001 |
Starting off the switch is a standard technique for Ghosts and, to some extent, later models. My father revels in demonstrating it on Ghosts, Phantoms and Twenties to anyone who'll stand still for long enough to witness it. Ideally you would only ever have to crank a car from cold in the morning, all subsequent starts that day being off the switch. An engine in very good condition will do it hours after the engine was stopped. Done properly you never risk a broken wrist (which is a dubious rite of passage for many Ghost owners) because you crank from cold - thirteen pulls with the ignition off - and then start off the switch. I have performed and witnessed this procedure countless times and can assure you it is very real. | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 814 Registered: 4-2016 |
Good post Chris. I have heard your Day talk about it, but I haven't seen it done yet. You will need to give me a lesson mate. (I wonder if my Chev would do that?) | |||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2015 |
OK. Now the real truth behind the fable is as I suspected and pivots upon having a combustion chamber full of gasoline vapor and proper compression, which along with the caveat of "an engine in very good condition" will affect how long that condition remains after the engine has stopped after a run. Without that necessary fuel/air mixture, one must crank sufficiently to get the rotating crank and pistons sucking air thru the carbs to generate the necessary pre-conditions. If one has to crank thirteen times (the PI starts after two or three when warm and halfdozen with ignition on and in morning cold) that seems like a awful lot of effort just to set the stage to "start off the spark" and with ignition on, probably would have started after half the pulls...remembering that the engine is allegedly "in very good condition". Avoiding a deranged thumb or wrist is simply a matter of not wrapping the thumb around the handle, such that in the event of kickback, the crank is simply pulled out of your grasp. Suitably retarded, I have never had kickback, but then never say never. Best to just keep thumb out of the way! | |||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 469 Registered: 4-2015 |
Out of Curiosity and given all the crazy stuff posted to U-Tube, I did a search trying to find a video of starting off the spark, but without luck. Did find this posting where their Phantom One starts on first pull...done properly...a firm up lift...probably with engine warm, but this gives an idea of how it should ideally work out. www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQGajSwC9yY Sorry if it's not an active link. Copy and paste into browser window. | |||
| Chris Gillings Frequent User Username: chrisg Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2001 |
A warm engine should always start on a single lift with the ignition fully retarded. When people have broken their wrists they were usually under duress and forgot to retract their thumb and retard the spark. Or the engine is poorly tuned - the timing being generally too advanced - or the magneto is switched on as well as the trembler. The thirteen lifts from cold (and only from cold) is simply to completely ensure that all cylinders are primed with a charge of fuel. Many old Ghost hands I know use this number and consider it 'lucky' and something of a morning ritual. They also keep an old penny (of the same year as their car, of course) to slip under the slow jet as a primitive choke. People who struggle to hand crank their car are often not following correct procedure or have neglected the car's maintenance. Switching off correctly influences how readily you can restart off the switch. I push the governor up a few notches from idle, richen the mixture two notches, fully advance the spark, switch to trembler then off. To restart, switch to trembler and pull the ignition lever smoothly down to fully retarded. Of course, once you have a functional starter motor in the car all this is academic and starting off the switch becomes just a party trick. | |||
| Chris Gillings Frequent User Username: chrisg Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2001 |
| |||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 470 Registered: 4-2015 |
Chris... Thanks for the links to Praeclarum. Now it makes much more sense. Good article. Before, I fully assumed I was simply having my leg pulled when told the story but without any practical supporting information. Although I was on the right track with the fuel/air mixture component, never having the benefit of the details of manipulating the spark lever on the quadrant, I was doing it all wrong. Now I'm looking forward to getting either the PI or PII out of winter hibernation and trying out the new trick! I'd still relish seeing a video if one exists. . | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1064 Registered: 9-2004 |
Cris G. spot-on. A few notes to the starting off the switch. First it is a must that the timming of the distributor is perfectly synchronised with the magneto. TO start from cold can be carried out with the mixture control set to fully strong. From memmory the throttle lever must be closed [40-50] and the high velocity starting carburetor lever must be turned to starting position. Crank engine on the handle about 3-4 times with makeing sure the thumb lever on the switch box is in the fully off position. All things being correct the engine is now primed and ready for the switch starting proceedure. The switch is turned to M-B-C magneto battery [distributor] charge The timming advance retard lever is swung and the engine will start. Have not experienced any workings of the trembler systems. | |||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 381 Registered: 10-2008 |
Gents, a word of warning, I have had the S1 start just by switching on the ignition; several times, particularly nasty when in "park". I presume this can happen on any 6cyl + engine. Mark | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1065 Registered: 9-2004 |
A short note on the 10 year battery mine seem to last for about seven to eight years, the first in 1987 had a liftime owner car garrantee. Four batterys and a few diodes replaced due to slow battery drain over the years. The battery company that supplied them has now gone bust [Unipart partco] Question, is there any life time garrantee suppliers in the UK. With the many types of batteries materials ie: MF Calcium-Calcium Calcium-alloy VRLA GEL AGM (Vlies) I now wonder what would be best for the long term use. I have a starter jump pack lithion-ion that will start a diesel engine with a flat battery! how things have moved on. | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 816 Registered: 4-2016 |
The owners manual for my 25 Chev states to remove the battery (and wheel/tyres) and take it to the GM battery dealer and they will look after it for the winter when the car will not be driven. The battery sale and conditioning business back then seemed to be quite big as there was a large list of outlets available. (They said to store the wheels/tyres under the bed for best results over winter. ) | |||
| John Beech Prolific User Username: jbeech Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2016 |
Robert Noel, I once owned a Suzuki DR350, a big single 4-stroke that had no electric starter and involved a simple ritual for starting when cold. This principally involving kicking it a few times while switch off with the choke engaged, then switch-on and half-hearted kick until it popped, then choke off and a mighty heave with the full weight of my fat ass and presto, it fired right up. Warm was easy. Anyway, my present bike, a Harley-Davidson Sportster (what 'real' bikers refer to as the girly model because it's equipped with the small engine - 883cc vs 1200cc) possesses no kick starter whatsoever. Push of a button works (almost always). The exception being the time I left it switched on for a week and killed the battery. In that instance, a push start down a very slight incline (FL generally being flat as a 12 y/o girl's chest) had jer going nicely. By the way, this is my first Harley-Davidson and despite all the warnings about the bikes (previous street bikes including a Triumph Bonneville and a Moto Guzzi California and a slew of Japanese bikes but never an American iron horse) I find this motorcycle nearly perfect in execution and well suited for my needs (I ride it probably 3-4 times a week). As for hand cranking, my experience is limited to an old Ford 8n tractor, which my grandfather had on his farm and he taught me the technique (to include not wrapping my thumb around the handle). | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1066 Registered: 9-2004 |
Patrick, sounds like the battery was the old accumulator type, had a customer that had an old van for picking up the accumulators from his customers and servicing charging them over winter for about 6p each. When I have five mins I may try the Epsom salts that revitalizes the battery so some say! | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1238 Registered: 5-2015 |
John Beech the starting Technic for the SP 400 was simply to jump on the kick start full choke and 1/4 throttle and a quick rev choke off and hold at 1000 rpm for 15 seconds. Then ready for action. The 883 HD V twin is a good engine and no shame the bike at 70mph is smoother than the 1200, due to less CCs. The 883 sportser is good bike. I love motor bikes but I have metal hips and 65 years and with todays traffic its all to easy to fall off, in my condition a minor dropping the bike and its broken bones. So best not to. Epsom salts softens the hard sulphate build up so that a heavy charge breaks the sulphate off. thus making the battery better but the sulphate takes bits of lead with it which rest in the sludge at the bottom of the battery and eventually gets high enough to touch the plates and short them out. Also the battery chemistry has been changed which is not reversible. So bear in mind that this is only a short term solution to an ailing battery and soon a new one will be needed. Epsom salts are cheap so no harm in trying. A problem that comes up with old brit bike batteries is that modern batteries are starter batterys and if no kick start then more deep cycle is better. I had a BSA A10 with magneto and separate dynamo. This worked well because one could leave lights on and the dynamo would charge the battery back up again. | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 818 Registered: 4-2016 |
Haven't heard that trick before Patrick. Very interesting what you say there Robert. I need to read up more on old batteries. It is quite interesting that electric cars were almost dominating the auto scene pre 1910. Mr Hertz (car rentals) and Mr Exide (batteries) became very rich in those early days. I do love the story my owners manual tells me about pulling your car apart and storing things for the winter. Yes the book does state to put the wheels under the bed for the winter  | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2361 Registered: 4-2003 |
Patrick, I used to use Epsom salts [Magnesium Sulphate] to rejuvenate the old batteries with lead-antimony plates [the ones that you were always adding distilled water to on a regular basis due to electrolysis] as it was normal for a layer of Lead Sulphate to form on the plates reducing the battery output when needed most. The Epsom salts dissolved the scale layer but deposited a layer of electrically conductive "crud" at the bottom of each cell - this crud built-up over time and when it reached the bottom of the plates, this shorted out the plates reducing the output voltage for the battery and eventually loss of engine cranking ability and ultimately battery failure. The electrolysis associated with the lead-antimony plates was the reason why alternative lead alloys were developed and used in the so-called maintenance-free batteries. However, there is a price to pay - the lead-antimony plates were harder than the new alloys and were less-prone to buckling from over-charging using a "fast" battery charger and/or shock loadings from bad roads. I have experienced dead-cell problems in recent years with "low maintenance" batteries due to buckled plates from off-road vehicle use - I have never used a fast-charge setting on a battery charger used for low-maintenance batteries for this reason. The following link has a lot of useful information on storage battery basics: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html Your 1927 Chev manual has information for cold climates but what did they say for cars in hot climates like ours??? | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 819 Registered: 4-2016 |
David, As the car was built in Tarrytown New York, and shipped here in CKD form, the manuals are all for the American region. I have found out that early cars never had manuals made for the different countries to which they were sent. I would think that when GM purchased Holden, in the 30's that a regional based office took care of the Multiple brands that they were assembling & making bodies for here in Australia, thus region based instructions & parts manuals etc etc. Would have been an interesting time to be involved in any automobile gestation. I will be sure to check out your link David. Thanks for providing it. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1067 Registered: 9-2004 |
Patrick just a thought if your chevolet is a truck. To put the wheels under the bed may be the bed of the truck or a car!. Less chance of wood worm in the wooden spokes if fitted with the smell of motor liquids. Under the bedroom bed maybe they had chamber pots, when filled the smell may fend away unwanted visiters! | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1068 Registered: 9-2004 |
Talking batteries, my C6 3.0HDI has a form of energy recovery or brake energy recovery system.[what a car] The smart or active alternator only works when needed, when the power is on ie acelerating it is switched off but braking or coasting it is turned on. The system senses what the cars doing and signals the alternator to charge the battery and run the electical systems at the most efficent time. When battery needs replacement the new one has to be programed to the ECU---------also a strick battery remove and refit procedure must be followed due to the many one touch components etc. | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 820 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hi Patrick. Defiantly in the house and under your bed. It also mentions that it is recommended to store the car in a shed or a barn that does not contain animals as the gases produced can effect the cars finish. The owners manual also instructs how to remove the cylinder head and de coke valves, and it also refers to the steering wheel operation similarities to horse reins. Interesting read. |
Starting Off The Switch