| Author | Message | ||
     Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1327 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Folks I know this isn't specifically a RR question, but I'm interested in owners general perspective on this issue as it may well influence how I proceed. It also has relevance to RR ownership. The battery light on my 2004 Ford Explorer has illuminated on the dash, although the gauge reads normal. I'm thinking maybe a diode has blown in the alternator, causing a voltage drop sufficient to activate the warning light but not affect the gauge. Since the car has done 200k on the original alternator, with the original belts and a battery that is now 4 years old, should I just replace the lot. I wondered what the general view is. Should I replace potentially good parts in the interests of reducing the risk of breaking down somewhere, or should I wait until the problem starts to show itself in a more urgent fashion e.g. waiting for the gauge to start reading lower. It could be the fault is just a loose electrical connection, however after 200k miles, maybe I should replace the alternator, drive belts and battery anyway. I'd be interested in any comments. Geoff | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2015 |
Geoff, Simple answer... replace the lot with good parts. It's cheap and whatever you spend on the parts will be less than the tow and time it wastes if you wait. The long answer... Be sure the gauge is a gauge. The reason I say this is there are all sorts of gauge shaped idiot lights out there. I think I learned this on an MX-5 where the oil gauge would jump the the middle "OK" area when running (hot or cold was a clue) then just drop indicating oil pressure out of range. The computer didn't show the actual oil temp at the gauge because the driver would be scared. I couldn't believe it so I put a mechanical gauge on and sure enough idiot light gauge. I don't know how prevalent this is but the fact that manufacturers are massaging the needle readings is a little weird. I personally don't replace good parts out of principle. If you really need the car to be running or can't afford the hassle of a breakdown, alternator, belts and battery pretty much buys you reliability. Assuming FOMOCO parts and good wires. Preventative replacement of parts (FAA, racing harnesses etc) is a common and accepted practice so it's just another philosophy. So for the check, battery charging voltage with a VOM, battery visual of the electrolyte if it isn't sealed, load test of the battery, and visual of the belts. The RR connection. Sometimes I hear people talking about RR being complicated or hard to work on or difficult to understand or having odd design features. It is not. As evidence, The v6 on the 2002 FORD ranger is THE craziest engine ever. Don't believe me, do the rear timing chain. I'll make this brief but if you ever hear rattling at the rear of the right cylinder bank, sell the car. I did on a couple years back , which I think was a 02. I remember listening to the rear of the right bank with a metal rod saying something like "sure sounds like a slapping timing chain, but that "can't be" so must be a loose torque converter bolt" It was a timing chain because they used the same casting for both heads which put the cam drive sprocket for the right head at the rear, then to get a drive to it, they put a jack shaft through the block front to back. There were three timing chains, OK, but one at the rear of the engine.?? If you are going to do this you have volvo truck engineer design that tensioner. Ford made it from some plastic nonsense so when it grenades from heat degradation all the little bits for plastic and ground block can get all over the inside of the engine. On the plus side, the chain only grinds 1/2 inch of AL block before hitting a head bolt whereupon it stops grinding and starts sparking. Oh, yeah I forgot the best part, the cam is made up from a tube with pressed on lobes that you can't grab without a special tool (lest you crush it) so you can tighten the new cam drive sprocket stretch bolt on the back. The drive sprocket has no splines, woodruf key or other means of aliging it just the flat face of the cam end and the sprocket. Working on a RR for an engineer or craftsmen is a pleasure. RR didn't have the same mileage, emissions and cost of construction constraints as Ford so there you go with the differences in the engines. | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 577 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Geoff in my opinion I would replace the lot only if I was going to keep the Ford in service for a prolonged time period. Richard. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 376 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hi Geoff, This may sound silly but please consult the owners manual first. Why I am saying this is because my daughters car has warning lights that look pretty obvious until you consult the owners manual. Her engine warning light for instance can illuminate in orange, then can flash orange, and also can do the same in red. 4 combinations that mean 4 different things. She didn't have an owners manual so a mate in a local workshop put his reader on it and extracted codes where we found it was a low ad blue level warning. Don't know why they didn't put an ad blue light (like our trucks have where I work) but what looked ominous with an engine warning light on, ended up being pretty harmless. Codes/warning lights indicate that the offending item can't perform its duty, and not always is the part at fault as to why it can't perform its duty. It may be simply corrosion in the plug that has stopped it performing, or a low voltage supply simply caused by a loose battery terminal, you need to work down the line from the part that can't perform. By replacing the part, you still have not rectified the fault that stopped the part from performing. We now have an owners manual for it off eBay. If you can organise to extract codes they may tell you exactly what the issue is, thus only replacing the offending part, or rectifying why the part can't operate properly, which may or may not involve the parts you mentioned. Nothing worse than replacing something to find the fault still there. Unfortunately with modern electronics we need to fully investigate before replacing. Old tech was pretty straight forward, new tech is not as simple as it may seem. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 378 Registered: 4-2016 |
Ross, What a horror story!! Who the hell would think/expect that all that crap would be cheaper to produce than simply casting another head?? Ford tools!!! | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 331 Registered: 10-2008 |
My philosophy is to change batteries at 5 years if they have not failed before. I usually fit 4 yr guarantee batteries , but life of more than one year after the guarantee expires is being hopeful and I cannot tolerate flat batteries when I want to use the car ! That said the last Shadow battery failed at under 5 years, fortunately on my drive at home. Mark | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1066 Registered: 5-2015 |
The voltage at the battery with engine running at 1500 rpm and headlights on should be about 14.4 volts. If so then the alternator is ok. The parasitic load on the battery with ignition keys out of ignition should be no more than 50 milliamperes. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2035 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, This is an instance where it could easily be in your best financial interest to have an auto electrician do the diagnostic to determine what's wrong and then do the work yourself if you're so inclined. The alternator on my Cadillac failed unexpectedly when I was out of town last year during the Thanksgiving holiday in the US, and I had to have it replaced professionally because of the circumstances. However, it took no time for the technician to determine what the actual problem was, and had I been able to pay him for the diagnostic time and done an alternator replacement myself I would have. If you're not doing it yourself you can get into some fairly substantial loot by the time you get a new battery and have a new alternator installed. The part alone for a new alternator is usually a bit under $200 US on the low end, and that's usually for a remanufactured one. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1329 Registered: 5-2012 |
Many thanks for all your responses. It has vindicated my initial thoughts to replace the lot. I have just checked the battery voltage and it was 12.2. On starting the engine it dropped to 11.18v, then steadily lower when I turned the headlights and a/c on. Final question - should I buy OEM. The Ford part is $198 whereas the aftermarket supplier (Duralast) is $148? Geoff | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 579 Registered: 4-2012 |
Geoff in my opinion if you are keeping the car go original. Richard. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1330 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Richard I'm hoping to get a couple of years more out of the Explorer, so I shall do that. Some good news, earlier in the week the indicators on my Rolls stopped working. I have just checked it out and it was simply a blown fuse. I know this can be indicative of an underlying fault, but the wire looked 40 years old, so it may just have been a case of a tired fuse. I now have a backup car again. I know here in the US the use of indicators is optional, but for me I'd decided not to use the car until I'd fixed it. A case of old habits die hard.  Geoff | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1067 Registered: 5-2015 |
The alternator is £ucked. Just replace alternator and drive belt first and suck and see the rest. Reconditioned or even used is ok. You pays yer money and takes yer choice. On modern cars low operating voltage can cause weird things like gauges not reading correctly. I suspect that your alternator has blown a diode(s) and that instead of 3 phases you only have 2 phases charging 2/3 of charge. The battery is probably OK. But a battery is not expensive about £60 in the Uk so guess $ 100 in US. So if any doubts after alternator fix then fit new one. Note a car alternator cannot fully charge a battery because to charge a battery to 90%,is quite fast but the last 10% takes at least 10 hours. Regardless of how much voltage you stick in it. The excess will just boil the battery instead. The alternator charges at 14.4 Volts and keeps the operating voltage at 14.4 volts. To 100% charge a battery at 14.4 volts takes at least 10 hours and in this case probably longer. So for the car to fully charge the battery would take at least 10 hours of driving. So the battery must be charged from a mains operated charger. Nothing flash a 5 amp one will do. Charge for 24 hours. Specific gravity should be 1265 to 1270. And the open circuit voltage of the battery should be 12.6 to 12.7 volts after 5 min discharge at 10 amps. Headlights will do. If the specific gravity and volts don't match then the battery is not as good as it should be and should be replaced soon. Charging a battery from the mains for 24 hours is a good idea even on daily used cars because of the above. The biggest killer of batteries is the continual only 90% charge. This sulphates the battery up and shortens its life. With careful maintainance a car battery could maybe last twice as long. For more thrilling battery stuff go to battery university of the inter web. It's has pages of info of batteries with a section on lead acid batteries which explains the above and much more in thrilling detail you will be riveted to this yak drone bore. Seriously it's worth checking out because these guys know their onions. Ford Exploder. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2037 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, I've had Duralast (AutoZone), AutoCraft (Advance Auto Parts), EverStart Maxx (Wal-Mart), and Interstate batteries. All have been good and lasted more than three years. The Interstate and EverStart Maxx batteries both went over 5 years. The Maxx that's in SRH33576 has just started to show signs of failing and that's after having been in the car since April 2009 and having been badly discharged on more than one occasion. Lead acid batteries are not rocket science, and the only ones I've found to be iffy, either perfectly fine or die in very short order, are the 1-year warranty cheapies, and I haven't bought one of those in some years. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1331 Registered: 5-2012 |
Bob - thanks for the info Brian - Thanks for that. I will go with the Duralast. It is probably as good as the oem battery anyway. Also the alternator, as the Explorer will probably only go for another 3 years. Although having said that I'm amazed at how sweet the engine still is after 200k miles. Maybe I'm living in the past, when engines needed reconditioning after 50k. Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2038 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, You are living in the past as far as engine rebuilds go. My partner's "secondary truck" (2001 GMC) that is soon to leave the fold has about 270K on it, still purrs, and has never had anything other than routine maintenance on the engine. I have 196K on my 1996 Buick Roadmaster and the same is true. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and engines are engineered far differently from about the late 1970s on than they were before that time as far as longevity without major overhauls go. Even the primary truck is well over 100K miles now with nothing but routine maintenance (It's a 2007). My Cadillac is at 112K with no major overhaul that I'm aware of. I can't recall ever having had an engine rebuilt in any of the cars I've owned since 1990, though the Mitsubishi V6 that was in my now long gone Lebaron convertible desperately needed a ring job. These engines were notorious for creating white clouds of burning oil at a very tender age. Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 738 Registered: 4-2009 |
I had a Dodge Durango V8 which I sold last year to someone who then went on to use it as a work horse....... The engine was never once opened up in all the time I had it. Only half a million Kms  | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1070 Registered: 5-2015 |
My jeep has 118k miles so it's still low mileage in my mind. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2039 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, Given the improvements in engineering of the engines themselves, lubrication improvements (which have been amazing), and fuel improvements your experience with the Durango and my partner's with "the old truck" are completely unremarkable. An acquaintance at my last job was driving a Saab that had approximately the same amount on the clock as your Durango and it went on for at least a few years after I left (and may still be going for all I know). And for all the complaining about plastics in cars in places like wheel wells and the like, the life of most car bodies is also now light years ahead of those of the cars of my youth (I'm in my mid-50s). This is one area where I stand in direct opposition to the oft-repeated notion (about many things, not just motor vehicles), "They were so much better before." By absolutely any and all objective measures they most certainly were not. Cars, trucks, etc., are manufactured as transportation appliances, and they do that job better and far more reliably now than they've ever done it in the past. Brian, who's also with Bob_UK on 118K being low mileage in the lifetime of a contemporary engine | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1332 Registered: 5-2012 |
I'd guess that anyone under the age of 30 has never heard "big end knock". This was quite a common sound in the UK in the 70s. As Brian says, more advanced lubricants will have played a major part, but are modern crankshafts made of different alloys now? Maybe David could answer this. I'm just curious. It's surprising that longevity of an engine went from an expected 50K to 250k in just two decades. Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2040 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, I've never heard "big end knock" though I've heard reference to "big end knock." I guess I'm in the age group that was coming of automotive age as the technology was entering "the next phase." I am endlessly astounded at how many people still sincerely think that 100K is high mileage and that a modern engine will be "almost worn out" at that stage. I have never been able to convince my sister that she need not, if she wishes not, trade in her cars at 70 to 80K miles or so for fear of a multitude of failures. All the more so since she's been driving Nissans for years now and they're right up there with Honda and Toyota for "runs forever reliability" if you do routine oil changes (coolant changes are a good idea, but I've known of many cars that have never had one and kept going and going and going with no cooling system or overheating problems). Brian | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2015 |
Brian, Did you just say cars are"... manufactured as transportation appliances .." on a RR forum? Seriously though, for the most part the difference is statistical QC and can be traced to one man. I saw a lecture once where someone called him out on something like "why should be believe you old man?" and his answer was something like "toyota" Ouch. An approachable starter book would be "Out of the Crisis" Also, cars used to be way better than they are now. Better is a little subjective The only thing they have now is reliability without any input from the owner. Watches are the same way, everyone has a quartz. Doesn't make it better than my Seamaster. It's good to have a reliable inexpensive nondescript grey box to commute to work in (2010 jetta diesel for me) because who cares at 5:30 in the morning. Commuting is one of the low points of humanity. On the other hand, I am about to head over to a friend's house and will grab some keys to a car from the key bowl in the kitchen. The car I take (lots to choose from) will not be based on reliability because I make all of them reliable. It will not be based on mileage or crash ratings. It will be the best car ever produced | ||
| ross kowalski Experienced User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2015 |
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| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1071 Registered: 5-2015 |
In by gone days a Ford Escort engine would last around 90k miles. The gear box maybe 120k. I made a good living from rebuilding these bits. Modern engines are much more durable and when they finally go pear shaped the car is too old and not worth the the engine cost which is much more money than it used to be in comparison. Inflation. My Jeep at 118k miles is mechanically perfect. It drives without rattles or clunks. Rides like a 3 legged camel though. One has to drive the Jeep sedately. It's not really the sort of engine that you thrash because all the action is low down grunt. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2043 Registered: 6-2009 |
Ross wrote:
Yes. How can one argue that? It's not that there aren't lots of qualities that fall into the je ne sais quoi categories that draw us to different cars, and for different reasons, but I don't know of anyone who buys any one that's a current production vehicle who doesn't intend to use it for transportation. I'll also commit heresy and say that I don't think that Rolls-Royce or Bentley come close to being "the finest motorcars in the world" during the SY and SZ periods, at least, by any metric I'd use. Fine materials - check - beautiful workmanship - check - reliability when new - not nearly that of their "lesser" mainstream competitors - reliability with age, even properly maintained - not nearly as good as many of their competitors. I love my Shadow II and Wraith II - that doesn't mean that I don't recognize the shortcomings, some of which are significant, that they have compared to other cars. Reliability is near the top of what I think a car absolutely must possess to make the claim to be the finest motorcar in the world. SYs could never, ever claim good reliability, even when new. I say this having driven a 29-year-old [at the time] Shadow II, not perfectly maintained, over 5000 miles and up the Moki Dugway on a cross-country trip. I'm not saying they can't be relied upon at all, but they're a lot more fussy than many cars of their own eras. I deal with that fussiness and quirkiness because of compensating factors. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 337 Registered: 4-2015 |
None of my collection of Rolls-Royce and Bentley vehicles are appliances. They are experiences. Just like a "junkie", I need my "fix" every day and driving my GMC pickup truck is about as effective in that regard as mainlining saline solution. I will uncover one of my treasures and drive somewhere, anywhere, even for $1.00 of gasoline, or a single item at the grocery store...just so that I can revel in the aroma of leather, the wool carpets, the woodwork, the reflection in store windows, and of course, the Flying Lady proceeding me where ever I desire to go. Appliance? Not in the least! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2142 Registered: 4-2003 |
"As Brian says, more advanced lubricants will have played a major part, but are modern crankshafts made of different alloys now? Maybe David could answer this. Geoff Wootten" I have not looked at crankshaft technology for many years so cannot give a definitive comment other than the last major change I am aware of was the increasing use of lower-cost cast rather than forged steel crankshafts in mass-produced cars as a consequence of improvements in foundry practice and technology. It is my opinion the decrease in the occurrence of "big end knock" is largely the result of improved lubricants and bearing design rather than changes in crankshaft material and manufacture. A broken crankshaft rather than "big end knock" was more common in my younger days caused by over-revving or engine modifications to extract maximum power especially with engines fitted with cast-iron crankshafts where the inherent casting defects would initiate fatigue cracking leading to fracture. High-performance cars invariably had engines with forged steel crankshafts for this reason. The adoption of hydraulic lifters for overhead valve engines had a side effect of preventing over-revving due to "pump up" whereas solid lifters meant engines could and would be operated at and beyond their design range increasing the probability of failure either due to bearing wear and/or loads on components greater than their design specification. The widespread use of overhead cam engines in recent years has resulted in the use of electronic rev limiters to keep maximum engine revs to acceptable limits consistent with the design and application of the engine plus the engine management data would provide absolute proof of driver abuse when assessing warranty claims. |
