| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 547 Registered: 2-2013 |
There is something about the purchase of a fine quality car that is closely linked to falling for the woman of your dreams. Perhaps the woman caper is much more dangerous as our cars don't have an inherent ability to manipulate our wallets to the same extent as the ladies. But that is not the core of my yap what is is emotion itself when purchasing. FORGET IT! And if you can't forget it then bury it. Two types of emotion are evident. The first is the joy of driving it all polished up and gleaming and the second is the fear that some other chap will get in first and steal your great deal before you. The microsecond you feel either of these feelings take a hammer in your right hand and smash your left hand hard with it. Any intuitive uncomfortable thoughts you have about something that does not sound right or does not look right should never be put aside but should immediately investigated with a large magnifying glass if a microscope is not available. Never ever trust a glossy slick video on the net. If a dealer has an educated friendly voice or blats on like a chattering monkey on his website about how he wants to "establish a relationship with you" ignore his nonsense totally. These guys will tell you the same thing if they are hanging upside down during a baseball bat to ribs session. The next time I go to buy a good car I will approach the matter with all the emotion of an undertaker on an an extremely depressing drizzling British day with black ravens in the air. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1015 Registered: 5-2015 |
I know what you mean. So easy to get caught up with a sum of money the car the emotions etc, which makes for subjectivness rather the cold hearted objectiveness. I always suggest, that if it's the first Royce being brought that pick an obviously nice car and drive it first. Because one may find that Royces are not ones cup of tea. Then check every thing you can. If the car drives ok for a 100 miles and one likes the car, then get a pro inspection. If before the inspection things are not as good as first thought then maybe go no further. With traders I suggest use a Royce dealer. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 302 Registered: 4-2015 |
Vladimir... Are we to read between the lines and infer that things did not go as hoped with the black spur? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 548 Registered: 2-2013 |
Sadly Christian you are correct | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 303 Registered: 4-2015 |
Valdimir... That is unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected. Rolls-Royce makes very attractive cars that even after many years can appear to have a "pretty face", but which upon closer examination, more often than not turn out to be like a neurotic, high strung, high maintenance, crack addict female. It can be very depressing to have your hopes built up and then crushed. The only consolation is to just be thankful you did not get married to that one! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2098 Registered: 4-2003 |
I was responsible for causing Vladimir's introspection....... In my opinion, the Black Spur had existing and potential problems that most likely would make it a "money pit" for an unsuspecting buyer. It could become a "road warrior" for an owner who accepted the poor condition of the bodywork and interior and had the expertise and patience to sort out the myriad of mechanical problems that afflict R-R/B vehicles that are not driven regularly and appropriately maintained. The tyres fitted to the vehicle were made in August 1999, the current mileage on the odometer was 33142 miles and the only documented service was in September 2011 at 27421 miles for engine oil, filter and safety check presumably for registration purposes. The car had been resprayed at some stage and there were extensive visible paint runs and "orange peel" on the vehicle exterior. I suggest the asking price reflected the quality of the vehicle. Otherwise, other vehicles at a higher price would be a better long-term proposition. P.S. It would be an ideal "staff car" for someone with dubious activities especially with its heavily tinted dark windows. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 304 Registered: 4-2015 |
Not to mention that 99% of the RR/B cars out there that are over 25 years old need to have all of the hydraulic lines replaced, which at a service facility can run $10,000 and up depending on what other items are done at the same time. This "deferred maintenance" is something that all "used car salesmen" will vigorously turn a blind eye to and pretend does not exist in the hopes that someone who has no idea will be the "lucky" purchaser. If you really want to go wild and replace all of the "past their use by date" rubber components in the suspension...although certainly not as critical as the rubber hoses...you can add another $10K+ to that figure of deferred maintenance any 25 year old car will require. Of course everyone here on the forum knows that already. It is just that "dealers" and "first time" RR/B purchasers do not. Given that my MPW coupe now needs precisely those items attended to, I will post another new thread about replacement "substitute" hydraulic lines and whether they are of the same long term quality as the pricey OEM lines. The service facilities seem to always suggest against them on the basis that the OEM lines are "special" and can resist better long term deleterious effects of the "special" compnents in RR363...to which I have to turn a jaundiced eye as a scare tactic. I have difficulty believing that brand name hydraulic hoses...Parker comes to mind...cannot hold up to RR363 for more that a few years. I will post further as time allows. Thoughts?? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2101 Registered: 4-2003 |
Christian, Make your own replacements using Cunifer 90/10 Copper Nickel alloy tube and say good bye to corroded brake lines. They are far superior to the standard OEM steel tube lines. The standard OEM flexible lines are prone to deterioration and collapsing in service just like other hoses. The main concern is the strength of the swages used to attach the hose to its fittings; the swage must be rated at 3000psi to provide a margin of safety over the system maximum pressure of 2500psi if the brakes are fully applied. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 292 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thoughts? Yes Sigh! The sigh was in reference to just another thing that goes against us all with these cars. Parker hoses were probably used on the original Queen Mary, and would STILL be in perfect order! Vlad said "stick movie" Haven't heard that term in ages.  | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 305 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... I like that idea and the longevity benefit. This would of course assume that none of the hydraulic suspension/brake lines NEED to be flexible. Clearly the ones to the caliphers NEED to be flexible, but what about the others? I suppose that it would also take a bit skill and planning to get all the bends and angles correct that are not an issue with flexible, since they are...well...flexible. Am I grasping this? | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1998 Registered: 6-2009 |
Christian, There is nothing, absolutely nothing, special about any of the brake hoses used on the Shadow series cars with the exception of the high-pressure hoses exiting the ACV. Virtually all of the "fast" degradation of these lines is secondary to the long, slow interaction of the carrier tube surface with the DOT3 (whether RR363 or otherwise) fluid. Hoses with PTFE carrier lining make any reactivity disappear from the equation, since it's about as inert as a substance can get. They are vastly superior to the original hoses, or their contemporary replacements, and have service lives very much longer than conventional brake hoses. One can find these pre-made, or go to a dealer who's licensed to make street-legal versions and have them made up. I know that when I next undertake a full hose replacement on any SY car I will not even think about using regular brake hoses because I don't want to have to think about doing the job again. Having done it once, I don't like to think about doing it again. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2106 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, For safety reasons given the remote but never the less possibility of a complete brake lock-up in an emergency stop when the full system pressure of 2500psi is applied to the pipework and hoses, swaged hose fittings with a minimum rating of 3000psi should be used on all flexible hoses. This requirement does not apply to the pipes and distribution blocks as their pressure rating is much greater than the hydraulic fluid pressure. I would not like to be in an emergency braking situation where a swaged fitting fails leading to a complete loss of braking in one circuit. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1999 Registered: 6-2009 |
David, As far as I have been able to determine, at least here in the US, burst strength of brake hoses and their fittings have to be at least 3000 PSI to be street legal and are tested to 3000 PSI as part of their regular QA procedure. The ones I had made to replace the high pressure hoses were tested to 3000 PSI as part of the actual assembly process. I know that my dealer was a BrakeQuip shop and used a machine much like this one to create them. I don't know of any street legal brake hose here in the US that has a burst strength under 3000 PSI. Since the Crewe OEM hoses and the replacement regular hoses I used had precisely the same markings as far as the safety specs they meet I have no doubt that they do, indeed, meet them. The next time, though, I will be using nothing but PTFE core brake hose with braided stainless sheathing and a flexible plastic jacket on top of it, like these [with the correct fittings, of course]. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 309 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... I appreciate the need for caution, but is it in any way an unusual expectation that an experieinced and qualified hose fabrication center, such as those that specialize in Parker hydraulic hoses for all applications, automotive and industrial, should be capable of the required application of the swaged ends onto hose that is rated for 3100#? The fittings are designed and intended for these pressure loads so is it unusual to expect that such "professionally" assembled componenets should suffice? I assume that your caution is directed to those who would think that they can produce a proper result capable of those pressures with simple hand tools rather than the hydraulic presses and matched collets that swage the components together. For almost 25 years when younger I operated excavation equipment with hydraulic hoses that ran at 3000 psi and never had a failure at the fittings. Hoses with such ratings were always wire braided on the interior in order to achieve those ratings. Obviously nonbraided hoses would be inappropriate. In the field one typically ran the hoses until they leaked, or worse, ruptured and threw pressurized hydraulic fluid all over everything, simply from age, chaffing, or the constant flexing under service conditions. Accordingly are there any special instructions that should be given to the assembly facility other than to use components that are appropriately rated? Since they regularly make hoses, and especially brake hoses, that are used in automotive applications and with the attendant liability, I do not see that they are unaware of the requirements and operational conditions that their products will be expected to withstand and are aware of the specially designed hoses for brake applications that are necessary as well. Is there something that I am missing in this assessment? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2107 Registered: 4-2003 |
Christian, You and I have had similar experiences during our working lives - I was a regional manager for Atlas Copco in Wollongong during the mid-1980's and had experience with their high-pressure hydraulic quarry and underground mining equipment. I saw numerous flexible hydraulic hose failures especially underground where hoses came adrift from fittings for an extensive number of reasons; some related to abuse, others due to lack of preventative maintenance and the most dangerous of all often were those that occurred without warning and without any indication of imminent failure. Safety was drummed into us consistently and we were trained to always assume any high pressure component could fail at any time and not take chances with a "she'll be right" attitude to working on or with hydraulic equipment. This is why I insist on using properly made and tested components from reputable suppliers - my life and that of others relying on my decisions and actions is too valuable to risk taking chances. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 310 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Yes. You are absolutely correct about the safety issue. Working around heavy equipment is inherently dangerous and in a conflict between flesh and metal, the metal always wins. I am thankful that I survived with only a few scars, a bit of hearing loss, and all of my fingers and limbs mostly intact. You get absolutely no credit for being 99.9% safe. All it takes is a moment of distraction, or an instant of inattention, and that .01% gets you. What finally ended it for me was slipping in the rain, having my foot fall into a pinch point, and simultaneously bumping the hydraulic lever that closed that pinch point. I thank God that at the last possible moment I was able to push away from that lever. The customer on that job had to come over and reverse the lever in order to allow me to be extracted. Although severely crushed, it's a miracle that I still have that foot and but for numbness for a year or so, all is now comparatively well, but I never felt comfortable again and got away from that business soon after. Go slowly. Be careful. Be safe. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2108 Registered: 4-2003 |
Christian, In Australia, underground miners used to [and may still do] collect stickers from the various suppliers and not having a range of stickers stashed in your safety helmet could mean you had to walk out of the mine if your exit did not coincide with a change of shift. A sticker or two offered to the shuttle car driver was a certain way of getting an immediate and quick ride to the cage or drift to exit the mine when needed. The best stickers were retro-reflective and highly prized however the one I appreciated most was one intended to be placed on the mirrors in the shower facilities - this had a simple but effective message: "The person you see is responsible for your safety". How true.................................... | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2000 Registered: 6-2009 |
I agree 100% with concern for safety. What I do not understand is the concern regarding brake hoses that meet the necessary safety specifications and come from any major manufacturer of same, or custom hoses that are made by shops that (in the US at least, and I'd presume the equivalent in all venues) must be DOT (Dept. of Transportation) certified and place their DOT ID number on any hose they fabricate. Call me naive, but I don't believe for a moment that either one of these types of source for brake hoses is going to be offering substandard product. It's not in their best business or legal interests, for starters. I hold this general conviction with regard to all "big name" providers of auto parts or consumables of various kinds (e.g., oil, fluid, etc.). Virtually every certification program for oils, for instance, is voluntary, but the product liability for lying about whether your product actually meets same would be astronomical were you to be caught doing that. In the litigious society that the United States has become these concerns are not merely academic. I am responsible for my safety, but there is no way that I can rely on anything other than manufacturer statements about most of the things I buy related to a car, be that car a Rolls-Royce or Bentley or not. I certainly can't do at-home tests of brake line burst strength. I do not think my situation, nor my approach regarding researching product suitability to application, are unique. Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 716 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian, If you end up making a set of these superior hoses for a Shadow/Wraith, please make a set for me and we will square up later. Thanks Omar | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2001 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, Just to be completely clear I do not fabricate these hoses myself, but have had them fabricated by DOT certified shops that do this. I don't have enough call to replace brake hoses that could ever justify the investment in equipment necessary for this undertaking. Some things are best left to the experts, and in my book this is one of them. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2110 Registered: 4-2003 |
Christian, Buying from reputable suppliers is essential - there have been problems with on-line merchants selling cheap Asian products of dubious quality and no assurance they meet prescribed standards. Branded products from well-known manufacturers are the only way to go although there have been problems with illegal clones being sold outside the professional retailers. Caveat Emptor applies and these shonky sellers always disappear at the first sign of trouble with their offerings . | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 311 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Yes, to be sure. Fortunately I have available a Parker "hose and fittings" store local where I am able to stand there and observe as the fabrication is done while I wait. Brian... Thanks for the info on the PTFE lining brake tube. I will be inquiring if the local fabricator has either that or the Parker version, and wire braided is certainly the way to go and probably more exedient that carefully assembling the solid cunifer tubing. Christian |
