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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.121.215
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2015 - 06:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

the UK and others have immigration problems. Any discussion on this inevitable ends in accusations of racists

The real cause of the problem is that the countries the migrants are fleeing are poor and or war torn. If I were in their shoes I would be doing the same thing.

The solution is to make these desperate countries better places to live.

I haven't a clue how.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 188
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2015 - 09:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bomb them into oblivion, Soviet style so they know who is boss, then rebuild them like happened with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Nothing else works and I don't give a damn about the racist tag because my sympathy gland is all dried up.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 665
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2015 - 13:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I find the immigration experiment in the UK fascinating. It's interesting how policy and expectation has changed over the decades. I think the original idea, when immigration started in the late 1950's, was people would become "Englishmen and Women" but with a different skin colour. Then as it was realised just how deep culture ran, the idea of separate development took hold and people were encouraged to practice their own cultures within the UK. As of late however, it appears there is growing alarm at just how segregated the the UK is becoming so the government has started imposing English nationality tests, among other things, to try to stop these divisions. I hope I live long enough to see how it all turns out. Will the country merge into a single hybrid culture or will the country fragment into zones under different political control. As I said, fascinating.

Geoff
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 245
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2015 - 19:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Fascinating - If you don't live here.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2015 - 19:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The world is a strange place these days. Everything is not quite as it seems.

I support anybody who wants to worship the purple mouse even if they say if you don't worship the purple mouse Vladimir you will burn in everlasting hell.

If people are comfortable with mouse purple that's fine by me. But when you start to lop the heads of right minded people who have gone to a strange country to try to help I get a bit figgety.

But when you cross into the land of the Rus bearing a bomb with the intention of find a convert I will be there and not so good for you.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.120.76
Posted on Monday, 30 March, 2015 - 08:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I find it irritating when people flee a culture that is oppressing them and then start the same culture up in their new country.

What really grinds my gears is the idea that the union Jack is a racist symbol.

Many years ago I was asked to remove a union Jack from my workspace, because Asian visitors might be offended.

I have no objection to the purple mouse. However the British branch should also fly the union Jack.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 266
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Monday, 30 March, 2015 - 20:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree with you like it or not the Union Jack is the National Emblem of the UK. A few years ago I visited Canada and was surprised at the number of Maple Leaf flags there were on display and people seemed to be glad to be Canadians. Maybe I was just dreaming!!!!

Richard.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.31
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 05:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In France the tricolour is every where.

In the UK we don't fly the flag at police stations.

IMO we should fly the flag much more. Government offices and Town halls for instance.

Some see the union Jack as- political.
The union Jack is ecumenical.

Its for everybody who lives in the UK regardless of race or religion.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1562
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 07:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Wherever you see an Australian or New Zealand flag, you will also see a Union Jack. This may not be for long as our Kiwi neighbours will soon be voting in a referendum for a new national flag which will be unlikely to include the Union Jack.

In the Land of Oz, opinions on changing our flag are strong and divisive with dogmatic points of view on both sides. In recent years, more homes have installed flagpoles and flying the flag is more evident however we have a long way to go if we are to match the USA where most homes seem to proudly and conspicuously display the US flag. Unfortunately, our politicians like to wrap themselves in our flag whenever a contentious issue arises which detracts from the flag being a symbol of unity and national pride IMHO.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 08:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

How bizarre Bob that somebody should ask an Englishman to remove his Union Jack in England from his workplace. Clearly crazy, plus downright insulting, an offer for a thrashing obviously and why would a Chinese be offended, you would not get far in China telling them to take their flags down.

Weakness on the behalf of a government can only be the creator of such a weird situation. If I come to UK I expect to see the Union Jack flying.
Indeed, I think when I do I will buy a Union Jack and bring one with me.


Sometimes when I see certain bearded chaps in London parading with signs like "Sharia Law for UK" I don't know whether to laugh at them and believe they are playing the Monty Python angle or whether to send them an atlas with the shortest route marked in black text pen back to Mecca.

The cheeky ones were even advocating turning Buckingham palace into a mosque. I think maybe your law makers there should look at a amendment to the treason laws for example:

"anybody publicly by any means advocating the adoption of sharia law in UK or turning Buckingham Palace into a mosque shall be escorted by the closest regiment of the army to Heathrow, have his or her citizenship revoked permanently, his or her assets seized by the crown and be deposited in the next available airline seat in a straight jacket and dispatched back to wherever he or she came and or to any country where sharia law is applicable regardless of his or her birthplace, within 24 hours - this law can and will not be adjudicated upon in any court of law"

Now you cant tell me that that little amendment would not rectify the present silly situation forthwith.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 667
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 13:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Vladimir

Don't do it. Don't fly the Union Jack. You will be considered a racist. Unless the World Cup is on. Then it's considered ok as you are deemed to be supporting the English football team. BTW Asian, as used in the UK, refers to people from the Indian sub-continent, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. In the US, Asian means people from China i.e. the same as used in Australia.

Regards sharia law Vladimir, you're too late. It's already practiced in the UK with the blessing of the government. There are an estimated 80 sharia courts active at the moment. However, they do have to operate within English law, so chopping off of hands is not allowed. I reckon within 20 years, my hometown Birmingham, will be majority Muslim so I would imagine the demands then will be for the full Sharia package. Would your man Putin allow this in Russia?

Geoff
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 193
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 14:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I can't see how flying a Union Jack can be racist at all. Apart from that the Union Jack is very colourful flag just the Old Glory is.

I really don't give a toss if people are Moslem or worship the purple frog as as they don't expect me to believe in their beliefs.

Australians are totally feed up with the minority element here banging their religious drum and I can see if this nonsense goes on for much longer a lot of peace loving moslems are going to cop it big time in the cross fire.

My view is if some young fool here wants to join ISIS then he or she should forfeit the comfortable life here and be assisted to the airport with a one way ticket and his file stamped "never to return".

I think the concept of multiculturalism is fine as long as your culture does not entail the destruction of the country you have adopted. Who in their right mind would go to Saudi Arabia and try to convert them to the purple frog brigade?

It is definitely a case of Pandora's box being opened when it should have been kept nailed shut.

No Putin would never allow that and most certainly neither would the Russian people. They are tolerant of different cultures but only in a minor way as their view is this is Russia and if you don't like it, especially if you make no effort to learn Russian language then the door is open, now get out while you can.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 23:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

I can't see how flying a Union Jack can be racist at all. . .




And therein lies the problem. There is no "one perspective" on this, and people do well to listen to those who make claims that certain symbols are offensive to them, and why. The history of the British Empire is glorious in England, and as part of world history, but was and is experienced quite differently by those who were ruled versus doing the ruling. I don't imagine that the impressions of the Union Jack of many living in the countries Geoff mentions is a neutral or positive one. In a business setting, if these are your clients, taking their perspectives into account is both good business and good manners.

Saying that "I can't see how . . .," when other people are more than willing to tell you "how" in a civil manner, if you're willing to listen, is at the root of some of the most intractable problems on the surface of the earth.

Radicalism is an issue of its own.

Brian, who'll immediately note that this sort of problem isn't confined to any one nation. Here in the USA we have a hard-core contingent that insists that flying the Confederate flag represents, "Heritage, not hate."
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 194
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 07:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Marvelous points Brian, however, I can't see much sense in going to Mongolia and being offended if the local pie shop man has the Mongolian flag up. The Mongols were about the only lot who invaded Russia successfully, and the atrocities were huge, evil and nasty.

When in Rome do as Romans do. A short but perfect dictum.

People should not go to another country and get offended by that country's flag regardless of history.

No, I will never buy the nonsense that I have to take their perspectives into account - they can jolly well stay in their own country and I don't want their business if that's the type of nonsense they want to carry on with.

The American Civil War was brutal. Does a New Yorker get offended when he or she is holidaying in Charleston South Carolina upon seeing the Confederate flag, does a Alabama raised person get offended by the Stars and Stripes when they stroll in Manhattan?

Perhaps I should fly over to Washington, and say "oh Dear Sir could you please take that flag down, that one with the Stars and Stripes because I feel the Soviet Union was a good thing for Russia and you naughty Americans should have had your economy croaked before ours because of the cold war. "

Cannot see myself being so rude. If I go to USA then I don't sook about seeing Old Glory because to do so would show bad manners IMHO.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1262
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 07:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

What you're saying, in long and far more delicate form is, essentially, "F*ck Off!!," to anyone who doesn't buy into your line of thinking.

You have every right to do that. I have every right to say that, "You, sir, are gravely mistaken."

Brian, who knows quite a few people from locations in the USA that include The South that find any display of the "Stars n' Bars"/Confederate flag offensive. Given what was fought for under that flag, it's immediately obvious why that's the case.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 10:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A very interesting reply Brian, but I think that the day has come for the west to stop pandering to the winge of a very vocal organized minority.

If in Rome do as Romans do and if you can't don't come to Rome. Yes I do think that's my point exactly.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 11:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

Again, you're entirely missing my point. You also seem to be limiting your point to radicalism. Zealotry and the radicalism it sometimes creates is and has always been its very own issue when and where it arises. I'm not an apologist for radicals bent on wreaking destruction.

Having some respect for minorities is one of the things that has made the West, well, the West. Most of the complaints of most minorities are far from whinging and history shows us this repeatedly. It's very easy to be dismissive when you're the one doing the dismissing. It's not nearly so easy to tolerate when you're the one constantly being dismissed. It takes a lot of patience, persistence, and restraint, actually, to make your voice heard when you're part of a minority that it's still viewed as "OK" to ignore, mistreat, or actively oppress within a given culture.

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 196
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 11:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well Brian, if my support of the Russian flag in Russia and the Australian flag is Australia and thinking that an Englishman should support his flag in England and a US citizen should support his flag is the USA then I am happy to be an active oppressor. Indeed Brian I am honoured by the title.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 668
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 13:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian and Vladimir

I think you are arguing at cross purposes. Let me inject my views and see if you take issue. I believe minority groups should be protected. Taking black Americans as an example. They should have freedom from abuse, discrimination and inequality. All that black Americans are asking for is to take their place in American society. I don't think that is a big ask. In fact it is not an ask at all, it is their right. The same is true for the LGBT community. What I do take issue with is minority groups that organize themselves against the host, majority culture and make demands on that culture. The most obvious example being the demands for a separate legal system.

So, I agree with Brian when he speaks of the need for respect for minorities and I agree with Vladimir when he speaks of "when in Rome". I don't think the two views are mutually exclusive.

Geoff
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.120.140
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 07:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The UK was a different country when the Sun never set on the British empire.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1264
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 April, 2015 - 01:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

I'd say you've nailed it. I just don't see the position I've been espousing in any of Vladimir's rhetoric. "When in Rome" is certainly not mutually exclusive to preserving significant parts of one's own heritage when making a home within another culture.

I find the backlash against multiculturalism very, very unfortunate. The United States was, and still is, an excellent example of being able to make one of many and yet still allowing those many to retain parts of their own cultures that are most dear to them. When I think about what was lost within my own family history (ability to speak & read German, for one) because of the insistence that "When in Rome" was an absolute, rather than a relative, command it makes me sad. There was never a need, though there was an incredibly strong social pressure, to erase virtually everything about "where you came from" in order to fit in quite nicely in the culture of the United States. I'm quite pleased that the social pressure now leans toward preservation and respect rather than active suppression of any and all traces of having immigrated.

Bob UK,

You are indeed correct. Those who were under imperial rule also tend to have long memories, and for good reason. One need only look at the attitudes in various countries in Europe toward various other countries in Europe to see how long memories of past injustices can be.

For myself, I've never thought that the old saw, "Forgive and forget," made any sense. You can't really forgive unless you have a memory of what it is you're forgiving. Remembering what was, but knowing that this is not what is, is the key to both forgiveness and moving forward without rancor. You've still not, in any meaningful sense, forgotten. It seems that in both personal situations and world affairs that one side in significant altercations typically wants to move forward well before the other feels comfortable or safe in doing so. You just can't rush it.

Brian
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Frequent User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 56
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Thursday, 02 April, 2015 - 08:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I just discovered this thread, ok, now you got me started!!!! My wife is Russian and needs a visa to travel to the UK. Each 2 years the same procedure: travel from Luxembourg to Paris (UK does not maintain a visa application centre here) for an interview, then 3 weeks wait, then travel back to Paris to pick it up. But then all politicians want to reduce the carbon footprint of our daily lives. Not mentioning the 387GBP fee. OK I better stop and think of my gearbox removal....
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bob uk
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Posted From: 92.40.249.101
Posted on Friday, 03 April, 2015 - 08:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

JP
Thats just daft red tape. And no doubt a bit of politics thrown in. 387 for the pleasure of form filling.

One of my sons mate married a Russian lass he moved to Moscow.

I dont see why being in the EU is so good.
BMW won't stop selling their cars to the UK. Just because the UK has left the union. Big is not necessarily good. There's an opitmum size for a nation.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 197
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Saturday, 04 April, 2015 - 02:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ho ho , love the 387GBP fee, who said armed robbery didn't pay.

I always thought it was fascinating that the west banged the high moral drum so loud during the cold war years about the poor people in the Soviet Union blah blah then the second the Soviet Union collapsed the west sealed its borders up to stop all the economic refugees seeking the delights of the west.

Yes well you don't have to go too far in Russia these days to find many people who will tell you that they had a much better life in Soviet times than now.

The world is a system of competing prisons called countries. If you have the loot the world is your oyster and if you don't then you have to stay in your prison.

As the poodle in the poster once said " I've been poor, I've been rich, Rich is better" Positive the mutt got it dead right.
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Chris Buckenham
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Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Saturday, 04 April, 2015 - 17:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well here's some bullshit for you.

I'm sitting on a beach in Goa on a business / Easter holiday with lovely wife and youngest daughter. Indian visa requirements changed and were outsourced to a private firm in the UK from mid March. Had to use an agency to walk the application around the system because after 14 the March couldn't guarantee getting interview appointments together for visa application, and 11 year old kid would have had to have visit by herself.Just got in before the deadline. Just under 700 GBP later passports returned with visas within five working days.

Most other European countries , US , Canada , Australia are part of the zero cost to traveller visa waiver program.

So how have we got to this nonsense? In our local town there are five Indian restaurants and it is almost the most popular food in the country, and of course we love it. Not really Indian though, more Bangladeshi anglicised stuff.
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bob uk
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Posted From: 92.40.249.171
Posted on Sunday, 05 April, 2015 - 06:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Most of the dishes that are foreign have actually been invented by british poeple and not necessarily of asian decent.

Everybody in the visa systems wants money.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 200
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Monday, 06 April, 2015 - 08:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well Chris, its like this. Years ago it was rarer for somebody in the west to want a foreign wife and so if one chose a foreign wife then it was not a big thing to get one into any western country.

But politicians, being the parasites that they are saw a taxable buck in this caper and slowly but certainly and indeed now we have a situation in Australia that even an Australian born Australian who has served his country in battle has to pay just a tad under $8000 to lodge a spousal visa application.

And indeed that application contains more questions in it than what was needed to join the army and get your head blown off overseas in active duty.

Yes and what is more don't expect just because you are paying an idiotic amount of money for a spousal visa that you get competent service out of the immigration department oh no they will take between 8 months and 2 years plus to process your application and if you thought the eight grand was enough governmental pillaging on your pocket they have a whole arsenal of further fees to hit you with.

The Australian Immigration department and all Australian Embassies are staffed by the uncaring loon. Not too long back I visited the Australian Embassy in Manila. Here it was in perhaps the most expensive part of the city with more security than Fort Knox and who do I have to deal with at the counter? Of course not an Aussie but a Phillipino. I felt like going on a bloody rampage in the place.

Not too long ago the view was that if your were an Aussie and got into trouble, you should not waste your time with the Australian Embassy because you will be given better treatment by the New Zealand Embassy. What a joke.

When I practised the evil law over one and a half decades plus ago, I decided to have real fun with the Australian Immigration department in a case that went to the Federal Court and the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.

I decided to have real fun with them so I walked up to their lawyers before both cases began and told them they should go an get a job sweeping the street, that their department was hopelessly incompetent and that they would loose the case - an they did and it was a case I thought I should lose.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 361
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 14 April, 2015 - 04:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Another interesting topic (I have been away from the Forum for a while, and am catching up).
Sorry to learn of your illness, BobUK, hoping and praying for the best for you; I really enjoy and value your musings here.
The flag: symbol of your nation, your homeland. it represents all your national ideals, so you should know and understand what these are and be prepared to explain them to the youths you encounter.Seems the schools are not doing this, at least in the US.
The flag does not represent where your homeland falls short of its ideals, and all do to a certain extent. So when you burn or abuse your flag, you are denouncing the ideals, not the actuality.In my opinion.
Immigration: the USA is seeing this and we are torn: many of the people work hard and lead conservative, family-oriented lives; then there are gang members, welfare moochers by the load. It seems US leaders are mostly unwilling to enforce immigration law, either because they hope to benefit from unrestrained immigration, or because they are afraiad of being called racist. Meanwhile no one offers advice on where to get the money to pay all the social benefits, when Social Security, Medicare, et al are already strapped and getting worse.
I don't object to the people coming at all if they want ot become Americans adopt our national ideals and have a better life. I do object to some who insist on changing the american culture to their own, and refusing to join us, adn I object to self-serving politicians who are pandering to them.
I read some of the immigration problems in UK, and I can see they have some problems: unrestrained muslim immigration, and EU immigration moving in because of economic differences within the EU community. I don't know much about the situation in Australia. I have a friend-former coworker who is working as an engineer in New Zeland now. I am not certain what she had to do to accomplish this, though.
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bob uk
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Posted From: 92.40.248.238
Posted on Tuesday, 14 April, 2015 - 05:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy,
Thank you for the thought of my illness.

Polish immigrants are moaning about Romania.
I think people comfuse racist with nationalist .

(Message approved by david_gore)