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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.94
Posted on Saturday, 07 March, 2015 - 08:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I went out with a neighbour and the fuel light was on so I thought the first stop would be for petrol so I put a fiver on the dash. He drives, Micra car, past two petrol stops them runs out just as we get on the forecourt of a petrol stop
Then starts shouting at this other guy for getting in his way making stop rather than making to the pump.

He then puts just a fiver in the tank. On the way back the lights come on again we made it back. But what a way to run a car.

A Micra will do 50mpg so stick twenty in and drive all week. He seems to want to hang on to money right to the last second driving around on fumes and getting angry when he runs out.

My method is as soon as the light comes on I get go go juice. Lpg I fill right up and petrol I go 30 in the jeep.

Running out of petrol is not illegal in the UK but I could imagine a scenario where running out causes an accident that leads to careless driving or driving a vehicle unfit for the road.

I will avoid getting in a car with him. Also when we got to the market he Started arguing with the car park guy over where to park. Then carries on telling me he's in right.
very angry man syndrome who needs to wind his neck in.

Apart from that nice day

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1552
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 07 March, 2015 - 12:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

Yet another example of the time-worn adage "you can choose your friends but not your family" to which the following two words need to be added; "and neighbours".

For what it is worth, I have never trusted fuel gauges or warning lights but do trust my trip meter which I reset each time I fill up and when 500km rolls over; time to fill up as I have enough fuel left for another 50 to 80km before running dry [having to hand prime the injector pump and injectors to restart the diesel engine makes one very aware of the necessity to refuel before completely running out of fuel.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Saturday, 07 March, 2015 - 20:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I love my neighbours because I have none. But actually most Russians drive around with the needle on empty all the time every time. Plus they only wear their seat belts when they come into the road blocks where the police walk around with loaded pistol gripped AK 47 machine guns accepting many bribes from all who drive new cars. Drivers of cars that are old and held together with bits of wire are never harassed because the police know they probably don't have a kopek to their name. In addition to this when there is an accident Russian men fly out of their cars and punch each other in the head. On top of that they all drive like they are trying to commit suicide ie fast and much crazy. Women drivers are called as monkeys with hand grenades. One form of entertainment is when the ice gets on the road and as virtually nobody has chains or proper snow tires they lock up the four wheels and slide 100 meters before they hit the car in front of them. I was on the bus one day and the driver could not get any traction because of the ice, so he went from forward to reverse to forward etc and then managed to get the rear tyres to grip and reversed straight back into a brand new Lada. The bus driver and the owner of the Lada then commenced bashing each other in the head and only stopped when a policemen walked out of nowhere and waved his little white baton at them. Most Russian police are ex military and they don't think twice before thumping you. An Australian was with his Russian girlfriend in Volgograd walking along when they saw a policeman wave over a driver. The policeman then punched the driver in the head through the window which caused the Australian to exclaim "that's a bit rough" "Yes" the Russian girl replied "very bad driver" Somewhere around 1998 the Leningrad mafia had come up with a new trick of driving around in marked phony police cars and pulling drivers over to rob them of any money or valuables. An American businessman knew about this so when he was travelling in his Lincoln from Leningrad to Moscow he ignored the police car behind him signalling him to stop. He got it wrong when he tried to speed away. It was the real police and they emptied a machine gun through his rear window. So chaps all I can advise you is if in Russia only use the public transport system. The undergrounds are spotlessly clean with no graffiti unlike New York where when I was there in 1980 every carriage had been sprayed from top to bottom with some language that looked to be from the planet Zork.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 648
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 03:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And to confirm this check out "Russian driver compilation" on youtube. My favorite is where a pedestrian, nearly run over, pulls out his hand gun and starts shooting at the offending car. There are compilations for a lot of different countries, but the Russian one is the craziest.

Geoff
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 129
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 04:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You are of course correct Geoff and the disturbing thing about your story is that only the army, police and of course the 2000 different and competing mafias have legal or illegal access to handguns. Evidently, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Moscow had become a form of Al Capone's Chicago where a banker a week was being dispatched permanently and the shooter would leave the gun at the scene. I always get a giggle when I hear of a Russian millionaire or billionaire because the next thing you hear is they have either taken up asylum in the west and have copped a load of polonium in their tea or they have taken their wheely bin out from their Gold Coast mansion only to meet not one but two assassins. The connections between former unemployed KGB officers and the very naughty boys is scary. I once met a former Moscow prosecutor who was leaned on to drop a case but he had told them the case had gone too far up the ladder to be dropped. He was told that's no excuse so he did what was right I think for his family and fled at high speed to the west. I have a Ukrainian mate who I used to fish with and he does not think things in Russia will change within another 50 years. That aside I have heard that RR/B is doing a roaring trade in Moscow and that Mercedes had to build a new assembly line just to cope with the Russian market. Mind you about 97 percent of people are just scrapping by to put food on the table.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1237
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 05:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Amazing how many places compared to "Al Capone's Chicago," "the Wild West," or similar really *are* similar to what the United States was once like before "those awful laws and regulations" were in place protecting the masses from the marauders, whether gun-toting/slinging marauders or those employing seemingly [and I mean *seemingly*] less damaging methods.

The rule of law is a thing of beauty to behold wherever it becomes the norm, yet is never finished or perfected. Those laws also didn't spring up, unbidden, from the ground but were formulated to address needs that "the truly free market" creates but doesn't even care to try to solve.

Brian
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.7
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 05:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Not trusting low fuel lights is why I get fuel immediately.

The car going to use what it uses so delaying a splash and dash is stupid.

I love the Russian car crash you tube.

We are so lucky in UK because the standard of driving is quite good. I don't see much bad driving. I don't think that a driver going a bit slow is bad driving. Some think it is and hurl abuse at them, such bad manners. The abuse hurlers have accidents and near misses. I only have minor inconveniences such as slowing down a bit. I get there when I get there.

The longer the trip takes the longer one gets to enjoy the car.

Some drivers see another driver make a mistake and they on purpose make the mistake worse by not giving way or moving over. Pig ignorant road hogs.

The angry neighbour will one day meet another angry man and end up in police cells or hospital.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 07:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I find democracy amazing. So amazing that I am sure we have now reached the age of the Tyranny of Democracy. At $507,338 the Australian Prime Minister's salary is $107,338 more than the US President, plus he gets expenses for accommodation and food and when he gets the boot he's not free, yes $300,000 a year plus expenses for life. Right now our great government is attempting to whittle down the aged pension saying that the country can't afford it because there will be too many pensioners. Of course Australia can afford to get involved in every war the US gets involved in even the ones that are based on some dictator having weapons of mass destruction when in fact none are found and we can afford to give away billions in foreign aid. Tagged to this is the fact that young Australians in the 1970s could afford to buy a house and now none of them can afford to buy a house unless helped by inheritance etc. The great law makers of this nation turned a blind eye for decades while the banks fuelled a run on the real estate market whilst allowing foreign investors to buy properties driving the home price in Australia to its now insane level. No politican in Australia talks about this or wants to talk about it. It reminds me of the ostrich with its head planted fully in a hole in the ground. Its as if we don't have a problem at all. Our jails are overflowing, some prisoners are kept in shipping containers. But we don't have a problem. The great spook show machine is operating at a fever level with special dob in phone lines to call if you "see anything suspicious". Who let the terrorists into Australia ?, well actually our government did and no Australian born person ever got the vote on the sacred cow of multiculturalism and the immigration system. A professor here a few decades back had the audacity to mention that this may cause us problems and the media savaged him brutally. Ah - the rule of law, a beautiful thing, yes from a political science point of view beautiful and fascinating as well as totally unbelievable. From a reality point of view a festering gigantic horror story and sadly so far we have nothing to replace democracy with because communism never really worked except for the people right up the top it was a really nasty piece of work. I don't like western politicans because they only care about one thing and that is getting and retaining political power and if that means lying with precision and bs-ing with accuracy these lot are right on the money. But if you have an old RR/B, even if its not going, its somewhere where you can sit and fool yourself that its still the good old days.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1238
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 09:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

We'll simply have to accept that our perspectives are vastly different. With all the problems inherent in representative democracy, and there are plenty, I have yet to see another system that comes anywhere near to working as well.

The United States shares a boatload of the problems you outline. Not knowing the history of Australia with any precision I can't say what it may "look like" to the average Australian. Here in the US, though, anyone with a knowledge of history is just astounded at how much things right now not only look like they did during the age of the Robber Barons, but that there is a headlong rush to embrace the public policies of the Gilded Age, which was gilded for the very, very few. We're swinging back from the public policies that brought us to the zenith of our world power and broadest democracy, the post-WWII period through the mid-1970s, to policies (or, I should say, the complete lack thereof) that weren't working before the later ones were crafted, and any student of history recognizes this and why.

Even in democracies there are periods where things can swing far too close to, or actually become, oligarchy or plutocracy with "democratic window dressing." That's where we're headed in the US as I type.

By the way, that is what some would call "the good old days," which just goes to prove that most often the good old days weren't really all that good when the sentimental glasses come off.

I just hope the electorates in a number of Western democracies wake up soon and recognize that they actually need to pay attention to, and participate in, the political process. While the engaged will sometimes get screwed, the apathetic always do.

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 10:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well Brian I can remember in 1980 USA it was dead easy for a mechanic, even an illegal immigrant like me to get a job and the wage is NYC was double that of Australia. At the same time hard drugs were dealt openingly in the street, crime was high and the level of beggars was huge. I noticed that the USA/RUSSIA level of beggars was about 10 to 1 but admittedly I was living in the poor areas. To me the USA was great if you could work, excellent if you were middle class or rich. For the rest it was I imagine quite ghastly. On the other hand americans had a positive can do attitude whereas the Australian had a partially negative attitude to any new business venture. Cars, clothes, tools were half the price of Australia. In America if you were able to do your job, the boss loved you. In Australia, you were treated like s**t regardless. In both USA and Australia you could say what you wanted about the government so both countries had free speech but the americans were crazy with patriotism and I found the evangelicals to be nuttier than hardened drug users. Racial hatred between black and white in SC was scary. My point in my last post is that Australian politicans no longer stand on a principal and fall on a principal. They get into power and will pass any law, regardless of how stupid it is if they think that will keep them in office. And always, always they have zero hesitation in giving themselves huge wages and retirement benefits while at the same time telling everybody else to tighten their belts. But yes unfortunately we don't have anything better than democracy, but maybe Stephen Hawking is right, artificial intelligence just might liquidate our entire race. Then all our fears and worries will be over.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 650
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 14:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir

It sounds like you have an interesting story to tell. How did you manage to get out of the Soviet Union? I know it was very difficult to do so in those days. Could you speak English at that time? Why the move to Australia? Did you do all this on your own or did you have family with you. Have to say I admire your courage.

Geoff.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 136
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Monday, 09 March, 2015 - 04:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITAL LETTERS BUT MY LAPTOP KEYBOARD HAS GONE FERAL ON ME AGAIN NO DOUBT BECAUSE ITS MADE IN CHINA AND IS ONLY 2 YEARS OLD. LOVE TO BE ABLE TO TELL SOMEBODY GEOFF, LETS JUST SAY IT WAS A PURE SOVIET STORY FROM TOP TO BOTTOM AND WELL THE LEAST PEOPLE KNOW OF WHAT HAPPENED THE BETTER. ACTUALLY NO FAMILY EVER AND IT WAS NOT MY CHOICE TO COME HERE BUT I HAVE COME TO LOVE THE PLACE BUT SOMETIMES I JUST DONT KNOW WHY. CERTAINLY HOWEVER BETTER THAN IRAN OR NORTH KOREA
OH GEOFF, ALSO IF YOU HAVE ANY INPUT IN US FOREIGN POLICY, TELL THE CLOWNS NOT TO ARM THE UKRAINIANS AS THAT WILL SUPERCHARGE AN ALREADY VERY NASTY SITUATION. THAT ASIDE GEOFF I DO THINK IT WOULD BE EXCELLENT IF SOMEBODY IN MOSCOW OR COLORADO COULD JUST SLIP OVER ON SPILT COFFEE AND HIT THE RIGHT/WRONG BUTTON AND NUKE THE BOY WITH A BAD HAIRCUT IN PYONGYANG. HE JUST HAS TO GO AND THE SOONER THE BETTER. AND AS FOR HUMOUR THE FSB NEVER DEBRIEFED SNOWDEN AT THE AIRPORT, HO HO WHAT A HOOT, BET SOME OF THE LADS IN LANGLEY WANTED TO GIVE HIM A CUP OF TEA AND NOW THE NUTCASE WANTS TO RETURN TO THE US - NOW THAT IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING WHEN IT HAPPENS ISNT IT?
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.190
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 10:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Democracy is about the best we have. To me it's middle of the road with the extreme left and right either side. Left and right meet up round the back as despotic tyrants.

It doesn't matter about the ideology of the extremes the result for the slaves is the same.

I personally am a capitalist with socialist views who changes views to suit the application to get hopefully the best result for the most people.

Tony Benn was the worse kind of socialist politician who talked a syrup of indefinite politics only he understood.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.190
Posted on Sunday, 08 March, 2015 - 09:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have always thought that 100k a year is plenty. Don't overspend save money and retire which a couple of million in the bank.
Despot Tyrants aren't happy with one Phantom they have to have more. Diamond encrusted bath taps. Just get chrome ones.

One way of thinking could be a guy with no car is 99% worse off than a guy with a cheap car. 99.9 % worse off than the guy with a phantom. Both will keep the rain off.

My house is worth lots but it's dead money because I have to live somewhere. It's of no advantage to me having high house prices.
The young couples can't afford a house. The average length of tenancy is 3 years. I have lived in my house for 31 years. My family use it as a solid base to build lives on.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 651
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 09 March, 2015 - 07:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Vladimir

I agree with you on Ukraine. The EU has pushed eastwards over the last 10 years and is now trying to incorporate the Ukraine. It means the new German Empire will be just 500 miles from Moscow. No wonder the Russians are getting twitchy. At least you are a long way away if it all kicks off.

Geoff
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 769
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, 12 March, 2015 - 01:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yeah, Geoff. We're all of 2.5 minutes away by ballistic missile. That's not even time for the guv'mint bods to get to a nuclear shelter! I feel safer already.

Back to road rage ... Vladimir: Why do Russian find it so hard to look straight ahead while driving? Most of the thousands of YouTube clips I've watched start with a driver not even seeing that the bicycle, motorbike, car, bus, huge truck in front has slowed down or stopped. No wonder they don't look to either side or in their mirrors if such an obvious direction to point their eyes is lost on them!
Similarly; is it so difficult to keep all the wheels on a vehicle? The number of unattached car & truck wheels rolling down roads is quite ridiculous.
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.53
Posted on Thursday, 12 March, 2015 - 08:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To me driving is easy, I find the accidents in Russia madness do the government hand out free cars.

Got a ride in a BMW M5. This car has modified ride active suspension. The settings are softer when on soft but the same as std when on hard. It's like waft mode when fully soft. Very smooth. It allows the car to float along but goes hard if the steering is turned fast at
speed. Or put the knob half way for twisty stuff. Deceptively fast easy to get banned car. I want one.

Recently we had a guy with diabetic problems turn left at a rail crossing on to the rails. He got stuck just before the live rail starts. Shut the line down for two hours

I cannot stand being driven by drivers who constantly swear at other drivers. They drive to fast and constantly cut up others, without realising.

In town the traffic averages 18 mph which is good by modern trends. Driving aggressively to get there faster equals dents in bodywork.

When wheels come off driven axles the wheels get a flick which makes them go far. I saw a bus wheel bust through a steel 5 bar gate. It snapped the chain and bowed the gate.
The last accident I had was 4 years ago, a golf drove close behind me just as I started to reverse out of a marked parking bay. Donk. My tow ball scuffed his wheel arch. He got the right hump with his wife making comments about jeep drivers. I gave him my card and shook hands and he stopped shouting. 50 smart repair insurance co went knock for knock. Which because I suffered no damage meant no claim made. Sorted the easy way.
I told my insurers the exact truth with a diagram, the word unfortunately is a subconscious apologetic word which sort of says sorry without admitting liability.

Check out India for driving standard. It's a madhouse of horns and bumper cars.


}

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 770
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, 12 March, 2015 - 20:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah yes; India. The driving techniques over there are truly unique. It comes from a variety of sources.

1) Elephants and cattle always have right of way.

2) On dual carriageways both sides are often treated as parallel roads with traffic driving in both directions on each.

3) There are more bicycles and mopeds (either of each can have 3 wheels and be used as commercial vehicles) per mile of road than in any other country other than the possibility of Communist China.

4) Buses, which in the West have a carrying capacity of 38 seated and 12 standing, will have more than that hanging on to each side with more on the roof and several passengers sharing each seat.

5) Might (mass) is right (of way).

6) Crash testing? What's that?

7) Why worry? If it's your day to die then there's nothing you can do about it.

8) There are enough Buddhists around praying for the souls of roadkill (if it hasn't already been scraped up for supper) to be considered a normal road hazard.

9) If the chassis of a truck isn't scraping along the road surface then there's still room for more cargo.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 147
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2015 - 05:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan Indonesia is no different, except perhaps it is chickens that have the right of way.I was in a mini bus in Kupang on my way to a den of ill repute when the driver got the van into oncoming traffic and proceeded to lean severely on his horn.

I think Indonesians simply would not drive without the horn. Complete madness of course. In Australia I watch out for two drivers, our Asiatic friends and nuns. How either of these lot get drivers licences here is beyond me.

In Russia I look out for everybody because craziness is indeed the norm. Russian drivers have fallen in love with dash cams for some reason and I think there is possibly a ruble or two to be earned by selling a dash cam from a wreck. The dash cam accurately records what has really happened. In Russia, we have a mixture of hard drinking and a macho male attitude that would make any Hispanic tremble.

As for being across a tram line in traffic with a tram 3 inches from my door or driving on 3 wheels or driving a five stud car with only 2 or 3 nuts holding the wheel on this is according to my brother Sasha who never left Soviet Union or Russian Federation "seriously normal" which translates to some like "what are you talking about, there is nothing wrong with that".

One of the most endearing sights I saw from a car in 2000 just outide of Samara was a very old Russian man and his woman on motorbike and side car in minus 45c going down the road while its snowing heavily. Perhaps the household vodka supply had ran out and she was accompanying her man to make certain he only had one or two shots at the local bar before coming back home. Who knows, but Russians love their machinery and are capable of fixing things that in the west would be buried 20 meters under the other wrecks.

You really have to see it to believe it. Its a good idea to keep your wits about you when driving in the west but a microsecond of non concentration in Russia could very well be your last because basically anything can happen at any time incredibly fast and the hospitals are not exactly hot shot, that is if the ambulance taking you there actually arrives.
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.39
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2015 - 07:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We are so safe in Blighty. Well ordered traffic jams. Recently our local utilities have been endlessly digging holes. I am surrounded by road works. The roads are now bumpy.30 mph is rough. Unfortunately due to funding cuts I am about to lose my local cop shop.

The main danger in Dorset is the country lanes which look benign and hid there true danger. One can go for miles no other vehicles, then a tractor will just appear. Usually the driver ends up in a ditch. A lot of the lanes are just cart tracks that have been tarmac-ed.

So I keep to 40 max. Some bits 20 mph.

Try this. Compose and send a text while walking. You will meander due to no far reference point, and stop when thinking about next phrase. The stop is because you have run out of multi tasking room.
some think they can drive as well. A bit over the limit for alcohol is maybe safer. Beaware of pedestrians on mobiles because they tend to wander into the road.

Locally we have push bike avenging Angel who cycles around filming car drivers cutting him up while he goes fast to make it dramatic. Then hurls verbals at the driver. One day he will get a slap. He uses very bright strobe lights to annoy others. I ignore the idiot and drive round him carefully then go faster for a mile. Leave at least 2m gap when overtaking cyclists.

Worth a go. Is a hazard perception read up and free computer driving program.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 772
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2015 - 11:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I may have mentioned it, but I now also 'scoot' along on 2 wheels occasionally. No pedalling for me. No, Sir. I prefer the ease of a tiny 100cc infernal combustion engine! I filter through slow/stationary traffic with extreme care and still have to cope with jealous cagers hooting at me for beating them to, and through, the lights. Perhaps I should take a leaf out of the Russian bikers' handbook and carry a tree felling axe to 'free the scooter from a fallen tree'.

As for back country lanes; I've had to cope with some truly horrendous ones when my satnav has decided that I can fit a 10 foot motor home onto an 8 foot wide lane! As a 'truck' unit that knows the dimensions it should send me another way, but it seems that the basic maps aren't all that accurate. Fortunately I've now swapped it for an American (LHD) Dodge Ram that's somewhat (but not by much) narrower and a lot shorter & lower! The extra 100BHP is even more welcome. As a Yank Tank it suffers from the usual 'features'. More gallons per mile rather than the other way round. Steers by committee and the driver has less than one vote. Drive over an emaciated bacterium and the suspension bounces for the next hundred yards. Goes around corners like a sailing ship tacking against the wind whilst scraping the scuppers along the tarmac. At least it gets as many admiring looks as the Shadow. I like it.

As far as spatial awareness is concerned I'm probably quite paranoid in a car, but almost psychotically so on 2 wheels. A couple of tonnes around you can be so comforting, but sitting on a tiny scooter that weighs slightly less than the rider is another thing entirely. Still; you only live once and that once doesn't give you any do overs. Make it count or you'll regret it in the few seconds as your eyes close for the last time. I won't!

Before ending this diatribe: Today I decided to brim the tank to start a record of fuel/mileage usage. The book says it has a 22 gallon tank. That's equivalent to 86 litres for US gallons or 99 litres for Imperial gallons. Although the gauge was showing nearly a quarter tank I had to stop pumping at 100 litres as UK pumps are programmed to limit sales to that quantity. Yes, the gauge indicates over the FULL mark, but the tank isn't actually completely full! I'll have to shove a bit more into it in the morning and see how it goes.
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.120.211
Posted on Tuesday, 17 March, 2015 - 11:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My neighbours son has a tuned 125 Peugeot Speed flite. It goes well. It will out accelerate most car to 25 mph. Trouble is that drivers don't expect a scooter to go that fast. So dangerous to drive fast in traffic. His first tunning attempt was all noise and less power. This attempt has yielded 19 bhp and less noise.
my all time favourite small motor bike is a Honda CG 125cc.
I had a series of these and found that filing the main jet a tad with BOC nozzle files. Gave more power. One bike max out in neutral conditions at 81 mph. Before it wheesed to 70 eventually. The last 1/4 throttle did nothing but make more noise.I made a small profit on them. Never had engine gearbox or clutch problems.
The handling is good with new rear dampers and front fork service and adjustment. Plus proper tyres. The light weight allows one to chuck it into a bend and change line half way round.

My son fills his BMW 5 series to full, because he finds it tiresome and he has a company fuel card.

I use a paper map to get close then satnav. One of the things my son does in the BMW is drive routes with the heavy plant delivery drivers looking for snags. He often finds the satanic wrong. He logs them. He uses a truck based satanic. Most common error is narrow lanes that turn into cart tracks. Getting a 60 ton truck and Back hoe stuck is very expensive

Satnav is good in the high hedged lanes. Easy to get lost.

I like the red bit if speeding. My wife watches the speed on the satanic, and comments as required. Nothing vicious or a loaded sarcastic venomous barb, but just one word, speed. It's like having an extra eye Plus she works the radio and answers the phone. Plus she works the HVAC. She is the best in car gadget ever.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 775
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 18 March, 2015 - 19:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Re. 'snags' on back lanes, Bob. A couple of years ago my satnav took me down (not for the first time and not for the last) a lane that got narrower and narrower as well as twistier and twistier. After a couple of miles of this I came to 90 degree bend with a 'road unsuitable for traffic, sign immediately followed by a ford. Had I just been in the Toyota I would have been tempted to perform a 33 point turn on the road which was barely wider than the length of the bus. However I was towing a caravan which meant it was impossible to perform such a manouvre

So I pressed on and found why that 'unsuitable for' should have been 'impassible by'. First the car crashed over a 1 foot step, followed almost immediately by the caravan. Had I been going in the opposite direction it would have meant a shattered front end for the car and a tow out to get anywhere again. Now, I might have missed a cul-de-sac sign or similar, but having been back that way a couple of time since I can say that there are no hazard signs at the beginning of the lane and it still looks like a normal road for the first hundred yards. I'm beginning to think that the cartographers/satnav digital map makers are mostly going by high altitude Google Maps/Earth photos for their road maps!
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.120.144
Posted on Thursday, 19 March, 2015 - 07:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My son,s firm got a big back hoe on a low loader stuck half way round a bend in a lane between two telegraph poles. So they unloaded the back hoe and dis connected the tractor unit and dragged the low loader with the back hoe. Then reassembled the whole lot. The local police suggested the route so they kept quiet.

I find a paper map gives a better sense of how far and it's quicker.

I went to Scotland and didn't bother looking at any maps until north of Blackpool. Then paper map to Glasgow. Then satanic to the final destination.}

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 777
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, 19 March, 2015 - 19:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There are Satnavs and Satnavs. My first one was home made. It consisted of an old laptop, a separate LCD screen, GPS hardware & software and a mapping program. On the whole it worked well in the UK and even in Europe until one day it told me to "Bear left ahead" only to tell me to "Turn around and go left at the next junction". However I could see a second junction immediately ahead that could only join with the road I wanted, so ignored the instructions and turned right there.

Shortly after it told me to "Turn right at the end of the road". Knowing that this would send me back to the first (missed) junction I turned left anyway. After that it settled down and took me where I wanted to go. On the other hand it could get quite sulky at times. If I ignored its instructions more than a half dozen times it would simply shut down and have to be reinitialised!

The Google Maps based one in my mobile phone isn't much better. On a recent trip to part of a nearby town that is new to me I switched it on. At one junction it said "Take a left turn and an immediate right turn". I turned left, but couldn't see any right turns, but I was then given instructions to turn left. This took me down a very narrow road with cars parked along one side. The next instruction was also to "Turn left" onto a road completely blocked by traffic. This was due to the road ending at a bridge only 6'6" wide between stone walls and approaching traffic having priority. I went all the way round again before I could set the phone where I could see it and now the problem became obvious. The correct route was to turn RIGHT followed by an immediate LEFT!

What's it coming to when programmers can't tell left from right? Mind you; they seem to have the same difficulty with their elbows and another part of thei anatomy ...
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1248
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 20 March, 2015 - 07:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

GPS/Satnav is only as good as the electronic maps it has to work with.

Compared to having to deal with paper maps, most of which are not nearly detailed enough when you're trying to find your destination, GPS navigation is a godsend.

That being said, I've had a few incidents in the over 10 years, and several different vendors' products, I've worked with that have been suboptimal. I make a point of reporting those sorts of map errors via the online portals that every one of them have offered. The most amusing one was the one-way street in Staunton that CoPilot insisted that I turn on to, but in the wrong direction.

Brian
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.178
Posted on Friday, 20 March, 2015 - 05:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mine is a 6 year old Garmin which has not been updated with new data that will have errors. It at a guess 90% accurate. How one would measure accuracy is a mystery to me. By accuracy I mean not taking the long way round and then directing one down a one way street the wrong way.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 20 March, 2015 - 08:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

Not that any map data update can be guaranteed to be 100% error free, but I can definitely say that my experience with the Garmin devices owned in my household is that applying map data updates has done nothing except to improve accuracy and routing.

It does infuriate me that one of the changes to the routing firmware for the nuvi 755T (our first GPS) years ago changed it to strongly favor taking you around blocks (or longer) to ensure you will come up to your destination with it being on your right. I'm sorry, but I don't care if it's on my right or my left as long as I'm not forced to go out of my way in order to get there.

Brian
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.120.16
Posted on Saturday, 21 March, 2015 - 05:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Satanics are usefull for that last mile in town. Paper maps gives my internal map and sense of direction a refresh.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 778
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Saturday, 21 March, 2015 - 20:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I like to play the game "I know how it got me here, but will it take me back the same way?". More than half the time it chooses a completely different return route!
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 162
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Saturday, 21 March, 2015 - 21:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My feeling about Tom Toms and Nat Savs is that if I buy a car with one I will modify it with a half inch drill right through the centre followed by further torture with a blow torch and a pair of pliers.

And I am not the only one who hates these things. I knew a well healed middle aged couple who bought a new 7 series BMW and the husband didn't like the wife using the sat nav because she would not only argue with it but would go into a fit of abuse accompanied by triple X naughty words. In short the thing drove the woman mad.

I don't like them because they are another thing that causes people not to watch the road. I like the technology but hate its application.

The other day driving into town I watched this fool as he passed me straight across a double white line across a bridge.

If you were coming the other way, the nat sav would not give you directions on how to avoid a nasty bingle. And if you were looking at the nat sav you may have seen stars soon afterwards. This was in a 100kph area, not much time to react.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.120.6
Posted on Sunday, 22 March, 2015 - 02:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In car gadgets all distract drivers. Which is why I find my wife so useful. I drive the car and she does the gadgets.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 779
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2015 - 00:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I find the most annoying and distracting 'in car device' is usually a female passenger - especially any current SWMBO!

"Yes, I can see the bloody squirrel running across the road, so it's not necessary to jerk the steering wheel out of my hands to avoid it. By the way: That was a humongous tree you nearly drove us into!"

Women !!! Can't live with them, can't teach them to drive ...
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.117
Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2015 - 07:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan,
according to insurance statistics women cost less in claims.

Older people also cost less.

So when someone drives like an old women they are safe.

My wife wouldn't dream of touching any controls. She has travelled many miles with me driving.
As for animals they have to take pot luck, I will try to avoid animals but not at the expense of causing an accident.

A customer of mine hit a big cow in the New Forrest. Fiat X19. The car was totally wreak.She walked away but the cow died.

A whole cow what a Road Kill find. Not much meat on a squirrel.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 782
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2015 - 22:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Under UK law, if you hit and kill any animal on the road you have to leave it there, but the next vehicle that comes along can claim it. Some years ago a friend was steaming around the back roads of Derbyshire in his classic Mini when he struck a sheep at considerable velocity. The damage made the car instantly undriveable - and eventually had to be scrapped - but the sheep just shook itself and bounded off into the night never to be seen again!

There are many similar stories including a man who struck a roo and put his jacket on it to take a photo. Before he could get the camera out of the jacket the roo jumped up and buggered off with it and all that was in the pockets. Camera, wallet, car keys - the lot! In the USA a hunter knocked down an elk and laid his gun across the antlers to see if they would make a good gun rack. It was a better fit than he bargained for as it stuck fast as the animal skipped off into the woods.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1251
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2015 - 01:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I actually feel worse for those animals that survive the initial encounter with a car moving at reasonably high velocity. In virtually all cases, the internal damage and bleeding will kill them, it's just a matter of how quickly and, if not very quickly, how much extra suffering they will endure before their death.

I have had the unfortunate experience of having a dog run out in front of my car (1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight) on an interstate highway when I was traveling at 70 MPH. Needless to say the result was instant death (or very nearly so) for him. Then I had a deer run out in front of SRH33576 when I was on a tour with the RROC out in Utah in 2007. Since it happened right around dusk I was unable to find the animal and hope that I killed it. It demonstrated just how heavy the sheet metal is on these cars, as I only had a relatively small dent surrounding the right side turn signal. How that area collapsed while the lens on the signal was preserved I'll never know.

SRH33576 Deer Dent

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2015 - 04:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan along with cow, the kangaroo and or wallaby has to be on the road one of the world's most stupid creatures. I have lost count of how many skippys I have despatched and the amount of money I have spent on this carnage.

The crow on the other hand which has a brain many times smaller that the cow or kangaroo, really has its act together. I have never hit one in my life time. Folklore here is that if you hit a crow, then it's because the crow is stoned out of its mind and there must be a huge cannabis planation nearby.

Not certain about that one but I am certain that a lot of people have been killed trying to avoid a collision between their car and an animal. I do avoid them if I can but if the car goes out of control I am very good at bringing it back under control whether on dirt or gravel at high speed or not.

Unfortunately, many drivers just have no idea. I went to the my local pub a year back and there were two young French girls with bruises all over them.

They had managed to roll a rented brand new Toyota Landcruiser on a straight piece of road, clear evidence that the poor things did not have a clue about driving on the dirt at all. I would say that the minute they turned off the bitumen onto the dirt, they were doomed.

There are 4 dirt roads into my place and all are deadly. These roads almost have a personality because the road can change over night by rain or by government. Recently somebody at the local council had the brilliant idea of fixing up the road up and nobody has any idea what the clowns put on the road but let me tell you is was as bad as driving on ice in Russia without studded tires or chains.

I almost lost it at 80k per hour and had the car sideways one way, sideways the other way and sideways the first way before I got it back straight and this was while noticing there was a 20 foot drop waiting for me on each side of the road. Then the rear wheels started to go down so I gunned it and just made it out of the mess.

Times have changed. I spent some years at a coal mining town in Australia during the early 1970's called Ipswich when it was known as drag city. Just about every very young lad had a hotted up car and would leave the petrol/gas station smoking the rear tyres. Not to do so would incur the suspicion that maybe your sexual preference was questionable.

Now and again I could sneak out with a 429 Cobra Jet Mustang with a four speed and bury the local talent with sheer cubes but now and again you would come across what was known as a "fully bombed car" perhaps a Zephyr, FJ Holden or Falcon that had some secret under the bonnet and proved to be a real weapon. Saturday night had three essential elements: you had to do the ton (100mph), had to have a fist fight, and had to have horizontal activity, in the bush or at the drive-in movies with the notorious females of which there were many. Not to accomplish all three was to bring instant shame upon yourself and horrific teasing by all your mates.

A lot of this was done during intoxication that would get you locked up these days. We thought nothing of it.

I can remember being pulled up by a policeman one morning who noticed my car had 4 bald tyres and he said to me "now what is going to happen here if it rains and you are driving fast." "Oh I never drive fast" I replied and then the copper lost it and bellowed " *%^$$##@, you get that %#@#ing car around to the police station within 24 &^%$#@# hours with 4 &^%$^@# new tyres on it or I am *&^$$#& coming after you. The copper could have written out a juicy fine for me, but he didn't.

Naturally, I somehow found the money and or credit or whatever and got the car with 4 new tyres to the cop shop on time.

It was a different time when the police did not wear guns and guns were everywhere, every second person had a gun and if you didn't have a gun you knew where you could get a gun if you needed it.

But the police did not wear guns, tazers, mace. They did have batons and some say phonebooks at the police station. Police cars in those days had only a small light on the top and a siren on the bonnet/hood.

You could definitely outrun the police in those days with a fast car, but if you did it was prudent to move interstate or flee to New Zealand immediately because the police had no sense of humour and outrunning them even if you were a known tough hood and highly feared, you knew that the force was coming after you like a group of blood curdling savages.

In those days having to go to the court and pay a fine was the least of your worries. These days, the police cars look like clown hats, each year they get more obvious as if there is some arty creative government group which has internal contests to see just how many letters/ numbers of identification can be fitted onto each and every panel of a car with the most bright and glaring colours possible. And the police, poor things, are dressed up with so many weapons and bits and pieces that they put Robocop to shame.

But where I am live now things are more natural. For example I was driving home with my trades
assistant Magic Martin a while back when we noticed a Toyota Landcruiser coming the other way with three cowboys in the front and there was smoke billowing out from underneath their vehicle.

"Look Marty" I said "Three cowboys driving the poor thing into the ground, those crazies will only stop using it when the engine blows up, obviously the rings are shot". They were doing at least 110 kph, and then as we passed them we noticed the smoke was coming not from the Toyota but from a large cow they were towing behind with a thick rope. Possibly they had been savagely on the rum the night before or possibly they were sober.

I wonder what a London traffic bobby would make of that one.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User
Username: soviet

Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2015 - 05:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, sorry about the repeat. I noticed that if you hold the shift key down while accidently trying to edit in the last window, and hit a key the article get published. Perhaps a strange gremin in the software.

Hi Vladimir, no problem - have deleted the unfinished post. Tried to duplicate the accidental posting gremlin but it didn't work for me.

Outback cops - you bring back memories of my teen-age years when the cops had common-sense and effective remedies for those of us who pushed the boundaries rather than being revenue-collectors as they are now.

David
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.124
Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2015 - 07:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Policing in the 1950/1960s UK was a bit like Dixon of Dock Green and Z cars.
They largely kept a lid on law breaking and I enjoyed a safe up bringing.

I had a mate whose dad was a copper and he was a nice bloke and used to let kids play with the police cars bell.

I managed to avoid the police attention when I started driving. I always had insurance, and sometimes tax and mot. I got tugged one night with no mot or tax. The copper said we now know that you aren't legal, so ever. time we see you we are going to check. He let me off and ever since I have been legal. The cops pulled me twice after and when they saw I was legal they took me off their list.

I got away with a few speeding offences by groveling.

My last pull was 25years ago when I got directed into a layby for fuel check. The customs guy said they were looking for red diesel and I said this is a petrol van. So they sent me on my way.

Only a fool would drive without the legals because of ANPR. I reckon within 5 miles the authorities will know that the car isn't legal. Then within a few days the cops will pull you over and Nick you.

In Dorset there are roads that one can safely do a ton but it's still illegal. 2am with nothing else on the road and you may get a warning. 80mph is ok.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 242
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 03:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"I managed to avoid the police attention when I started driving. I always had insurance, and sometimes tax and mot."

If you didn't have tax and MOT, then you didn't have any insurance either!

With the recent abolition of the tax disc, I wonder how many untaxed vehicles are being used on the road, even if just illegally parked on the road outside the owners' house; or just nipping round the corner to the shop?
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.68
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 06:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If a car has no mot then the third party bit of the insurance is still valid.
Cars without Tax are still fully insured.

The motor insurers bureau (MIB)
Get a proportion of each premium. The money is used to pay third party liabilities of drivers who are uninsured.

The MIB can sue the uninsured driver but seldom bother because most uninsured drivers have no money.

The third party bit cannot be voided once a certificate is issued.
An insurer can void a certificate if the premium is not paid but must tell the policy holder. The insurer cannot void a certificate after a third party claim because of no mot even if the car is dangerous.

The reason for this is to make sure anybody injured by a car is compensated.

The insurance companies May however pay for damage to the insured vehicle with no mot at their discretion.

I used to inspect crashed cars and a few times I have seen illegal tyres. If the claim is on the comprehensive bit of the policy then the company may refuse and pay third party only.
Or offer a reduced settlement of the comprehensive claim.

It depends on circumstances. I checked a fiat with two bald tyres. The insurers paid in full because the fiat was parked when the truck hit it.
Also an old jag with no mot but in good condition was paid for in full.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 784
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 22:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A point about ANPR detection. Hardly any speed GATSO cameras are equipped with it and don't need to be as the pictures are scanned and checked at the time of issuing a ticket. However most of the average speed cameras are and can automatically issue a speeding ticket and inform the DVLA of an untaxed vehicle. Fortunately (for me) there are only a few dozen ANPR equipped police vehicles to cover the whole country so my (very occasionally) untaxed cars are safe as long as I don't exceed the posted speed limit near any cameras.

I should point out at this juncture that I hardly ever drive an untaxed vehicle as I'm eligible to have one taxed for free as part of my disability/invalidity earnings. Fortunately a few years ago a friend pointed out to me that no checks are made to ensure that you don't tax more than one car at a time thus saving me an extra 260 per annum.

On the point about GATSO cameras: In North West Europe there are unofficial and unlawful 'competitions' for the most imaginative method for destroying them. Necklacing has fallen by the wayside due to one person having his face recorded when the 'whoomph' of the igniting petrol activated the speed sensor while he was stood in front of it. The new preferred method is to locate a small hole in the rear into which they empty the contents of an expanding foam aerosol can. As the foam expands and hardens it occupies more space than the total volume of the casing, thus bursting it open and crushing all the delicate electronics. I applaud these people as a lot of cameras are installed unlawfully!

What do I mean by that statement? At least in UK, if not EU, law, these cameras should only be sited where there is a history of vehicular collision or other traffic incidents. Do the authorities bother about this? Do bears use toilet paper? As stated: These 'safety' cameras are merely seen as another way of raising revenue through back door taxation. The same could - and has been - said about state lotteries.
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David Gore
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Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1560
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2015 - 07:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is my understanding NSW speed cameras have a separate surveillance camera located close to the speed camera. This was the result of repeated vandalism after the speed cameras were first installed.

Never get between a Government and a lucrative source of revenue....................

IMHO speed cameras do little to change driver behaviour as there is no immediate connection between the speeding and the fine received some time afterwards whereas an immediate pull-over and "discussion" with a enforcement officer after an offence reinforces the deterrent effect of the fine. A pull-over also has the additional benefit of allowing alcohol/drug affected drivers to be immediately taken off the road to remove their risk to other road users, the arrest of individuals with outstanding warrants and for vehicle searches of known/suspected criminals/drug dealers [in NSW, banned drivers, individuals of interest to police and arrest warrants are linked to motor vehicle registration records for this purpose and reportedly this has been very successful].
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.112
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2015 - 07:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Also ANPR can't detect if the actual driver is the same as the data base. Son driving his mum's car for instance.

I only have two vehicles both are legal.

In Dorset we have a few speed cameras most of which are not used.

A copper told me that if while cruising around on patrol they trigger a speed camera, they stop the first car they see.
This is because the police can't exceed the speed limit without good cause. So they stop a car and write a report. One copper did this to find the car he stop had a wanted person in the car.

Some kids managed to trigger a camera with a radio controlled model car.

I saw a photo from a speed Camera of a sparrow hawk and another of a squirrel.

A traffic cop said that if a car is overtaking a slow moving lorry and exceeds the speed limit whilst overtaking and slows to the limit after he won't nick the driver.
A speed camera has no discretion.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
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Username: soviet

Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2015 - 14:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Cameras, I hate them as well as speed cameras. Its all Orwell's 1984 coming to fruition.

Jan I just love that idea of the expanding foam. Back in drag city in the 70's we would spot the camera because it had to be manned by a copper and we would put prawn heads there to stink them out and it worked.

These days cameras are everywhere and one day well will have to have them in our homes to cut down domestic violence or show we are not secretly smoking a joint or making our own beer. I hope I have kicked the bucket before it happens but I truly believe all this is well on the way to our door world wide.

David that expression of yours "Never get between a government and lucrative source of income" is pure literature.

Sadly, it cost $100,000 plus a year to lock a person up and with the immigration department letting in lots of people who they don't know anything about, well these people take advantage as they have nothing to loose as an Ozzy jail cell is seen as third star accommodation to many and we are paying for it.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.29
Posted on Saturday, 28 March, 2015 - 10:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It's the same in the UK. 60k per prisoner.

Originally imprisonment was used to keep someone while the village elders decided what punishment.

Prison doesn't work unless the inmate is taught to stop stealing or what ever. This costs money.

In the UK there's approx 80,000 only about 50 prisoners will never be released. The 79,950 prisoners will be released. Not training them to behave and keeping them in poor conditions doesn't work.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 785
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 30 March, 2015 - 21:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The Americans are the worst for the state of their prisons. If you're black you have a better life expectancy sitting in a cell on Death Row than 'in the hood'. However the society in them is nothing less than dog eat dog and nearly all arguments end with a 'shiv' in the ribs. Gangs of all sorts rule each different area of the exercise yard and each wing or block of the buildings. Cross one of those and you'll have all your teeth punched out so that you can't bite when called on to perform a certain service for the gang members.

Even so, the authorities have the cheek to call them 'Correctional Facilities'. Did you know that a very small monetary limit is set on your 'last meal' and that you actually get it a day or two before you are due for execution?

On the speed camera front: Many of them are being replaced by 'forwards facing' cameras that show the driver's face. In Japan that's the only type they use.
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.121.31
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 06:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The USA has thousands of convicts doing life with no parole.
The USA has prisons full of old people like an old people's home.

Fortunately in the UK we don't do that.

A lot of criminals are mentally ill.
One of my sons works for a government funded organization that deals with released prisoners. My son has cctv installed in the hostel which he can access via his mobile phone.
The residents know about the cctv yet do illegal things. And the local police can access the recordings. It's like their brains are wired wrong. He had one resident hide a stolen motor bike in his room!! When my son asked him about the bike the resident said he knew nothing yet the resident was shown on cctv pushing a bike in a corridor.

My son says it's like talking to a brick wall, they just dont get
it.
My son has had some successes or they haven't been caught. So cynical.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 666
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 09:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The USA has thousands of convicts doing life with no parole.
The USA has prisons full of old people like an old people's home.

Fortunately in the UK we don't do that.


That's because the US system favors the victim. The UK system favors the perpetrator. Murder someone in the US and you're going to prison for 40 years. In the UK for the same crime, 15 years, usually reduced to 10 by the parole board.

How often do you read Brits complaining about their ludicrous judicial system. Take the Cerys Edwards case. A head on collision with a Range Rover driven by a nutjob on the wrong side of the road at 70 mph in a 30 mph zone. She ended up paralysed and on a ventilator for the rest of her life. He got 6 months in prison. What a joke. I much prefer the US system. The thing is, you can't have it both ways. You can't have a fair justice system and a low prison population.

Geoff
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Bob UK
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Posted From: 94.197.120.140
Posted on Wednesday, 01 April, 2015 - 08:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The USA is about revenge and the end result of the crime.

Where as the UK is about rehabilitation and the intent of the crime.

Because the UK releases convicts, it's important that when sentencing offenders that the offender and the offenders family are considered.

I have been a victim of crime and at the time I want to maim the perpetrator. The judge has to temper that knee jerk reaction.

I too wonder that maybe the UK is a bit to soft.

However one can solace in what an old copper told me.
A burglar has a 90% chance of not being caught. But burglars need to do more than one burglary to survive. So after 10 burglaries the odds of getting caught greatly increase. They get caught and sent to prison. In general, criminals have a crap life.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1265
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 April, 2015 - 02:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob UK,

You really are gravely mistaken if you think that the U.S. legal system is primarily about revenge. I will say, though, that you are correct regarding there being far less examination regarding intent behind committing a crime. The advent of things like "three strikes" and "zero tolerance" laws have stripped judges of what I believe to be their rightful purview. There is now quite a bit of pushback regarding those laws but they will take a long, long time to be overturned.

I'd be hard pressed to say that any nation in the west, including the UK, has a prison system that is in any real way primarily focused on rehabilitation. It really would be an excellent thing if they were. Most prison systems appear to have the end result of creating more hardened criminals who often end up "taking the next step up" in criminality upon their release. This has always made it hellishly difficult for the minority who have resolved to turn their lives around after being incarcerated.

Brian
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bob uk
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Posted From: 188.29.164.251
Posted on Thursday, 02 April, 2015 - 08:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,
i have never been to the USA. so i bow to you on this.

I can only go by discovery tv which deals with murderers not the average local criminal.

The UK is far from the ideal model.

My son says most young criminals grow up and stop commiting crime.
The ones that don't spend a life of prison and hostels for ex cons.

My eldest son has a good job a nice house etc, all paid for by honest work. His cousin who is about the same age is a criminal who has nothing except the clothes he's wearing.

A ex con said that only the prisoner can rehabilitate themselves.

My son (the one that works in a hostel) said that they are full of excuses for commiting crime. In the offenders mind these excuses are justification for the crime.

I am fasinated with crimes and the law.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 669
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 02 April, 2015 - 09:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob

Did you watch Louis Theroux's documentary, broadcast last week on BBC2. Called "By Reason of Insanity", it was about a maximum security psychiatric facility in Ohio. They cater for off- the-scale criminals who have committed some of the worst crimes imaginable. A really interesting watch. It will be still available on BBC iplayer. It will give you an insight into US correctional facilities.

Geoff.
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 670
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 02 April, 2015 - 10:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I should add, you might be surprised at the high standard of care there.

When you have recovered from your medical incident put a trip to the US on your bucket list. You'll love it here.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1266
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 03 April, 2015 - 01:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob UK wrote: A ex con said that only the prisoner can rehabilitate themselves.

I think that's absolutely true. But it's also true that this is virtually impossible to do when you're still "on the inside" of the prison system.

I'm not nave, a great many criminals have no desire to rehabilitate themselves. But we (as in the U.S. corrections system - and any number of others I have even a passing knowledge of) really don't do anything to even try to set up opportunities for those who wish to try to reform their lives to start doing so while in prison.

Back to your "about revenge" comment, I do think that there is at least an element of that in the U.S. public's attitudes toward prison and prisoners. While people will say, in the abstract, that they favor taking steps that would allow those prisoners who want the opportunity to try to reform themselves to have it, that changes entirely when actual attempts to do this are piloted. The most direct route to reform is via education, be that vocational-technical or higher academics. As soon as anyone proposes offering this to prisoners the U.S. public raises its collective voice complaining that this is "treating prisoners better than those who've committed no crimes." I guess, in a certain way, that's true. But if you want to establish the opportunity for actual correction within corrections facilities there's very little else you can do except to give the necessary support to those willing and able to take it. Having one's freedom to do as one wishes taken entirely away is awfully punishing in and of itself. But some people really do want revenge, not just punishment and the potential for societal improvement through prisoner rehabilitation.

Crime and punishment, as well as prisoner rehabilitation for those who wish to undertake it, are all incredibly complex and nuanced issues.

Brian
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bob uk
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Posted From: 92.40.249.101
Posted on Friday, 03 April, 2015 - 08:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I watched the Louis Theroux documentary. I felt sorry for the inmates because they are ill with no real cure.

I call the revenge lot daily mail readers. They want to hang offenders.

Tell me why what reasons do you need to be told. Dont like Mondays by boom towm rats.

Also Mark Chapman who shot john lennon.

Both these convicts are trying to get parole. Mark Chapmam wont get parole because someone will murder him thus creating another criminal. Same with Monday's murderer. Mark Chapman said he and yoko ono would get on well together. All part of his delusion.

In the UK we have Ian ball who tried to kidnap Princess Anne. He's as nutty as a hat full of frogs. He will die in Broadmoor secure hospital. The lawyers knew he was nuts. So they gave him life imprisonment. Then declared him criminally insane. This means that should he be cured he will still have a life sentence.

There is no answer for the short comings of prison. We are stuck with it.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Randy Roberson
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Username: wascator

Post Number: 360
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 14 April, 2015 - 03:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Interesting comments about prisons. Read about Louisiana's famous Angola prison: this is the one for the worst criminals. it was once the most viscious prison in the US, but has seen great reforms and is a quite different place, which is being studied by other prisons.
Look at Mississippi's most serious prison, which is Parchman, north of Greenville, MS. from above using Google Earth. It is in the center of a huge area of Mississippi delta farmland, and is basically a place where the maladjusted can live apart from society.Way apart.
One of Man's seemingly insoluable problems.
The rule of law is our attempt to replace survival of the strongest with a set of rules which we participate in creating and all agree to abide by. Perfect? No, just better than the alternatives available to us. Rather than dependent on the whim of the powerful, depend on the law. That kind of thing.
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bob uk
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Posted From: 92.40.248.238
Posted on Tuesday, 14 April, 2015 - 05:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nothing is perfect. We do the best we can.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 790
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 19 April, 2015 - 23:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On the rehabilitation front: I recently watched a YouTube clip about a US man who defended a woman from a mugger in the street. As he tackled and restrained the black (colour relevant) thief dozens of other black & coloured people gathered around and kicked the crap out of the white samaritan with shouts of 'Remember Trayvon'. (Trayvon Martin was young black store robber shot dead by a white police officer just weeks earlier). After his arrest, the thief turned out to have been freed from prison the same morning for exactly the same offence at exactly the same location several months earlier!

It's not just the attitudes of the criminals that can't be explained. Many of their families are as bad. A youth with a long history of thefts from or of cars is seen breaking into a car. He attacks the approaching officer with a loaded firearm and is shot dead. The family gather to 'honour' his life and can only go on about how he lost his life for a car only worth a couple of thousand dollars. Why couldn't the police just let him go and recover the car later? "He didn't do nuffink bad in his short life". Elvis put it correctly in "In The Ghetto"! A young fool, a gun, some easy money. How could it go wrong?