| Author | Message | ||
     Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jan has suggested we form a new UK Section of RROCA - see posts in "Greeting from Westerham". So far there's Jan and me - I've elected myself Interim Co-Ordinator (Jan can't spell such a long word). The suggestion is to meet up in Westerham next Spring to really get things off the ground - if you're interested please get in touch. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2010 |
Good news - we shall be joined by Luci Burnham - that makes 3 of us, so we've got an Interim Co-Ordinator (me), and 2 Interim Cttee Members (Jan and Luci). More are welcomed. Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 255 Registered: 1-2008 |
Good God y'all, looks like we've got a minimal convoy 10-4 ...  | ||
| Godfrey Baillon-Bending Yet to post message Username: tsevniuk Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2010 |
Count me in, sounds like a good idea as I want to end up in Perth anyway | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2010 |
We are on a roll !! Now we are 4 and a whole crowd will shortly be applying to join the RROCA Forums and the proposed UK Section of RROCA (many already RREC Members). I'll contact "The Powers that Be" of RROCA for guidance as to how we should proceed. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2010 |
I can't find the right contact point for "The Powers that Be" so have posted on Suggestions Box asking for advice Peter | ||
| David Thomas Experienced User Username: davidthomas Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Peter This is where you will find contact details for the Federal Executive http://rroc.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Contact_and_Membership_Information. Hope this helps. Cheers, David Junior Vice President RROCA Victoria Branch | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 257 Registered: 1-2008 |
I've got an old school chum living in Leicester I could contact to see if he's interested in joining and a newbie RR owner near Leeds who might be interested as well. I'll see how the wind blows in the next day or two. | ||
| Chris Gillings Frequent User Username: chrisg Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2001 |
I don't want to rain on your parade, but... Have you canvassed this with the RROCA? As the RROCA is an incorporated body in Australia it may not be anything like as straightforward or possible as you may think. See its constitution first, at least. Your first problem will be that you cannot be members of the RROCA, as that is a federal administrative body only. It has only six 'members': the state branches. People can only be be members of a state branch of the RROCA. To become a 'Section' you would have to become one under a state branch (like the Tasmanian Section of the Vicorian Branch) or convince all branches to agree to a constitutional change. You should in any case, as a courtesy, present the notion to the RROCA Federal Executive before proceeding. Getting the drum on what this entails may save a lot of bother, frustration and confusion. This notion may fall into the category of what I call a 'Rooney-Garland' moment. Excitedly saying "Let's put on a show!" and taking it to completion is rarely as easy or as straightforward as it seems. That said, I wish you the best of British luck joining the most inclusive RR club in the world (at least at the state level). | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2010 |
David: thanks for providing contact details of Federal Executive - I'll contact them for guidance as to how best to proceed. Chris: thanks, all the points you raise are both noted and understood. YES - I am familiar with the Constitution of RROCA dated 18th September 1992 with Amendments dated March 2010, in fact I have a copy of all 35 pages right in front of me now. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2010 |
David and Chris On re-reading the Constitution of RROCA, the solution to forming a UK Section of RROCA is obvious: we ask one of the component states to the 1992 Deed constituting the Rolls Royce Owners Club of Australia to adopt us as a Section. The effect would be exactly as outlined in Chris's post above - We cecome a Section under a state branch e.g. the UK Section of the New South Wales Branch. I'll be in touch with the Secretary to The Federal Executive and report back. Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 258 Registered: 1-2008 |
I quite like Old South Wales having visited it for both work and leisure, so New South Wales would be acceptable to me. I just hope the weather will be a little drier for us if we get adopted. | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2010 |
Two items: I have emailed the Secretary of RROCA (W. Moorhouse,Esq), with copies to both the President and Treasurer of RROCA. Text reads: Dear Sir A number of us based in the UK would like to form a UK Section of RROCA and would ask for your guidance and help in this matter. If you would kindly look at the various postings to the Threads "UK Section of RROCA" and "Greetings from Westerham, Kent, UK" you will find the situation outlined at some length. Kind regards Peter Talbot xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I asked for guidance and David Thomas,Chris Gillings, and David Core,have kindly responded. Starting out as a "fan club" makes good sense and I suggest we proceed to do just that - see David Gore's post on this. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2010 |
We need a name !! Suggestions please. I've wondered if any of the following might suit and be agreeable with "the Powers that Be" : RROCA - UK Forum Members RROCA - UK Forum Members Group Your input requested Peter | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1316 Registered: 4-2003 |
Can I re-publish a little story that might temper the approach of those who seek common interests? I believe it is very relevant and pertinent. The Life Saving Station Author: Unknown On a dangerous seacoast where shipwrecks often occur there was once a crude little life-saving station. The building was just a hut, and there was only one boat but the few devoted members kept a constant watch over the sea, and with no thought for themselves went out day and night tirelessly searching for the lost. Some of those who were saved, and various others in the surrounding area, wanted to become associated with the station and give of their time and money and effort for the support of its work. New boats were bought and new crews trained. The little life-saving station grew. Some of the members of the life-saving station were unhappy that the building was so crude and poorly equipped. They felt that a more comfortable place should be provided as the first refuge of those saved from the sea. They replaced the emergency cots with beds and put better furniture in the enlarged building. Now, the life-saving station became a popular gathering place for its members, and they decorated it beautifully and furnished it exquisitely, because they used it as a sort of club. Fewer members were now interested in going to sea on lifesaving missions, so they hired life-boat crews to do this work. The life-saving motif still prevailed in this club's decoration, and there was a symbolic life-boat in the room where the club initiations were held. About this time a large ship was wrecked off the coast, and the hired crews brought in boat loads of cold, wet and half-drowned people. They were dirty and sick and some of them had black skin and some had yellow skin. The beautiful new club was in chaos. So the property committee immediately had a shower house built outside the club where victims of shipwreck could be cleaned up before coming inside. At the next meeting, there was a split in the club membership. Most of the members wanted to stop the club's life-saving activities as being unpleasant and a hindrance to the normal social life of the club. Some members insisted upon life-saving as their primary purpose and pointed out that they were still called a life-saving station. But they were finally voted down and told that if they wanted to save lives of all the various kinds of people who were shipwrecked in those waters, they could begin their own life-saving station down the coast. They did. As the years went by, the new station experienced the same changes that had occurred in the old. It evolved into a club, and yet another life-saving station was founded. History continued to repeat itself, and if you visit that sea coast today, you will find a number of exclusive clubs along that shore. Shipwrecks are frequent in those waters, but most of the people drown. | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 260 Registered: 1-2008 |
What a quaint little story. Although it does show up how this club has lost its way a little. How many members have forgotten that it's really just an story we would tell the little woman ('er indoors, the significant other, the ball & strife, SWMBO, wor lass, etc) when we wanted to meet up and crack a few tinnies? Owning, running, maintaining, drooling over, showing off in our cars has taken over to such an extent that almost none of us are in danger of losing our licenses for driving under the influence. Shame on you says I. What happened to the beer soaked evenings (most of which could not be recalled the following morning) of yesteryear? In the meantime I favour the name RROCA-Poms. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1317 Registered: 4-2003 |
My dear Jan/ Quaint though the story is, it does epitomise the state of Clubs I believe in both our countries. Thirty odd years ago I started actually writing about the mechanical intricacies of our beasts and was observed by most members as certainly an oddity but by some as someone not quite pleasant!! "These cars are so complex that they should only be worked on by Factory trained mechanics and certainly not owners". So membership became attractive to those who accepted this approach and others who dared to 'tinker' were politely ignored. The public view of our membership is, I believe bordering on elitism which would surely only be attractive to socially agressive and some wealthy people, so plebians such as myself have to be content with 'tinkering' on the side and endeavouring not to affront too many other members. As our web manager so tactfully observes, the overall involvement of the members of this Club is minimal. Many of you will be familiar with Tee One Topics which together with contributions to Praecarvm and allied publications has extracted well over a million words from my fingers in the last 3 decades. Yet when I attend general functions of the Club most have never heard of me, but more importantly most have never heard of, let alone read, Tee One Topics! I have got over this slight to my ego and thanks to the World Wide Web it doesn't matter because there are people such as you out there that take an interest in our cars and help each other keep them on the road. As to whether there should be a 'chapter' of enthusiasts in England allied to this Club, I really can't see the value other than, as reflected in my 'quaint little story', providing the genesis for yet another social network to benefit owners' mutual interests rather than those of our cars! | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2010 |
Bill } I'm going to try to answer the question "why form a UK Group ?" in "Squerrryes Parts 3 and 4". Can't type any more just now. Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 262 Registered: 1-2008 |
Much as I may agree with Bill that all too often any club, association, self-help group, etc may start to lose sight of their intended reason for existence you have to take into account the simple fact that maintaining old cars isn't all there is to life. Why not have occasional or even regular meetings where any number of 'splinter groups' can hive off temporarily for a chin-wag before returning to the central theme of the meet? You can't expect a widely disparate group of people to want to concentrate on just one subject (no matter that it's why they're there) for several hours before it gets tedious. The occasional foray into off-topic subjects can keep you feeling fresh and invigorated ready to dive back into the deep waters of abstruse technical wizardry we employ to keep our Ladies on the road. Do I want to know how, in the minutest detail, you manufactured a left handed throstle valve plunger gauge with automatic grommet retrieval for one tenth the cost of the Crewe version? Maybe, but not at this moment please as I'm exchanging wine making recipes with a fellow dipsomaniac! I can always read the description at my leisure when it's in the next Tee-One Topics. However I can swap Rolls/Bentley yarns with you and/or others in a half hour or so. In parting (I have a dog that needs to go to the vet's) where do I find "Squerrryes Parts 3 and 4"? I've done a search of the forum and it only comes back to this thread. Could it be in one of the RROCA Members Only sections? | ||
| Chris Gillings Frequent User Username: chrisg Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2001 |
Is it just a coincidence that my standard jocular term for an esoteric piece of engineering kit is a 'left-handed induction grommet flanger'? Spooky! It should come as no surprise to anyone that Bill is something of an extremist in his views. He is notorious for avoiding national rallies because he sees no value in them. After all, they're just an excuse for poncing about and going to formal dinners, aren't they? He even avoided the recent national rally that was held just down the road from his home. I sometimes wonder why he spends money on the subs for membership of not one, but two branches of the RROCA. Between Bill the purist mechanic and the pink gin set lie the rest of us.   It takes all kinds and that's what continues to make this club so very interesting. As my dear old mater once said (and with which Bill immediately and vehemently agreed): "Oh, really. It's just a #^*&ing car club." I've got the t-shirt, Bill. Have you? | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jan Could be that you can't find Squerryes Parts 3 & 4 because I haven't either written or posted them yet !!!!! Watch this Forum !!! Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2010 |
Squerryes Part 3 This is about me !! I'm a 68 year old (or young if you like) Sorry - hands just going into cramps - will continue later Peter | ||
| Brian Carson Experienced User Username: brian_carson Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2009 |
I recall meeting Bill and talking to him at the recent Canberra Rally. I even took a picture of him moving the new Ghost and talking to the Club president. I dont think Bill's views are that extreme. I for one am relatively new to the club and find the technical information of great value. This year the Qld branch, under the supervision of Barry Sparks held a series of Judging seminars. These were a great introduction to getting to know the various vehicles techincal specifications and workings. I hope that the branch continues and further grows the "techncial car" side of events, but also encourages the "social" club events. It takes many characters to be a part of the club. I dont mind "poncing about" in my newly acquired Bentley, which I choose largely on the technical advise I received from local and intersate members and the technical litrature on available through other states. Regards Brian | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2008 |
I'm far more used to a very informal atmosphere at meets such as those held by the TEOC. Unless you're comparing them to a teenage beach barby. Even then there may not be much of a difference. I suppose that it's understandable considering that the Estima and its derivatives are 7/8 seater family cars, although more than half the club members don't have children! It wasn't much different when I was a member of a UK American car club since I owned a US spec Jeep Grand Cherokee at the time. If you're interested I made a video of some of the activities at this year's AGM. Don't bother with the last 2/3 of it as it's just the committee reporting to the members and would be boring in the extreme to non TEOC members. It can be found here. However I don't think it would be too hard to get another tux/evening suit. Unfortunately the late SWMBO gave my previous one away and forgot to ask me in advance (or inform me after) so I didn't notice until I wanted to wear it to a function! OK, so I'd put on a bit of weight. I've lost it all and more since - even though I could still stand to lose a few more (tens of) kilos. Peter: You don't have all that many years on me as I turn 61 this week. Apropros of another thread: I'm in favour of having a forum user's general location (nearest town/city and country) in the info box on the left. It's always easier to give advice or even offers of hands on assistance if you know roughly where the poster can be found. With so many colonials having families which originated in Blighty it's not unusual to find towns and cities named after ones in the UK all around the world. One would look such a fool if offering to pop down to Boston (Lincolnshire) only to find that the respondant lives in Boston (Massachusetts). Oops! | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1321 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jan et alii/ I am indebted to Chris Gillings for including a well documented but sadly under-appreciated photo of my bum. The occasion was many years ago at Thredbo Ski Resort when our then Federal President expressed concern that his Corniche was suffering incontinence below the Spirit of Ecstacy. I immediately examined the Lady discreetly and there was no evidence of spontaneous micturation. Since there was no 'Rolls-Royce Trained Specialist' (see contemporary post in the Technical Thread)in the area and it would have been at least a four hour drive to find one approximately fitting that description, I decided to be bloody bold and resolute and flung myself into the engine bay, having first opened the bonnet! The picture Chris has lodged was taken as I remember by a lady of inestimable charm but apparently of dubious taste but I can't complain as it has resulted in offers of all manner which in my mid septuageneric age, are really a tonic to my ego! As to my eccentricty, I make no apology; someone has to do it. And the reason for the dual membership is several-fold, the NSW Branch was my first contact with the Australian Club having enjoyed some three years membership in the United States (Chesapeake Region). That was in 1972 I think when I started the 'Canberra Contributions' for insertion in the then stencil printed London and Derby and for which I attracted significant approbrium from some extant practitioners in the repair business. The National Magazine 'Praeclarvm' had not been published for some 2 years and then the entire Federal Executive at the time resigned, with the exception of the Federal Secretary. Meanwhile I offered to re-start Praeclarvm in the style of the RROC's publication 'The Flying Lady' which was grudgingly accepted by the Branches and then the Federal Secretary took charge, appointed himself as President, invited me to be Federal Secretary and wrote a new Constitution! And they talk now about the Middle East political models! The ACT Branch was eventually formed thanks to the persistence of Ian Irwin and initially the little group met quite often to show each other what we had discovered and in the manner of rotating office holders I managed to hold the office of President three times. On the last occasion my insistence on involving members in the greasier side of Rolls-Royce ownership, met with such approbrium, I resigned and the rest is history. I have had little influence in the Club but plenty of fun, exercised my umbridge, had one end of me photographed and gathered a number of interesting mementos. The greatest dividend was being invited to the Factory at their expense in 1980 to see the new model being put together and in a frenzied week being briefed on the Company's policy on trademark dilution. That is about it other than the extraordinary fact that there is a picture of me supine and naked on the World Wide Web garnered by an agent provateur overseas, but displayed in a Rolls-Royce context. If you are really intrigued Google me! | ||
| John Wright Unregistered guest Posted From: 124.171.205.175 |
There is another aspect of the idea of establishing a Branch or Section of a Branch of the R-ROCA in the UK. I understand that about 25 years ago there was a move to establish a Section of the R-REC in the US. The R-ROC Inc were less than impressed and the upshot was that it was agreed that R-R Clubs would encourage their members to join other R-R Clubs if they so wished, but there would be no establishing of Branches/Sections/Chapters etc within the area of another club. I believe that this unwritten agreement is still adhered to today. We would of course welcome members from the UK who might wish to join the R-ROCA; however, I am not aware of any Branch wishing to change the status quo on this one. In any event I would imagine Federal Council would wish to be involved in any such decision given the potential ramifications. Federal Council meets next in May 2012. I usually avoid posting on the Forum for fear that my own views may be interpreted as Club policy. In this case all the feedback from Branch Presidents so far supports maintaining the status quo. John Wright (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2010 |
Just for once I'm almost (but not quite) lost for words!! A fair number of us living in the UK, who use/contibute to the Forums, thought it might be a good idea to form a UK Section of RROCA. Our aims would be tripartite: 1. To extend awareness of the Forums as a significant resource. 2. To have some kind of Corporate Identity when we attend Charity Classic Car Shows. 3. To meet up in person once or twice a year so we can put names to faces. I asked for advice on how best to proceed with this idea and received a very mixed bag of replies - some positive, some negative, and some which reflected a "Jobs Worth" attitude. Many of us in the UK are Members of RREC (I'm also a Member of RREC-SE and enjoy attending RREC/RREC-SE Events) - these are, however, rather more social Events than a gathering of like minded individuals to discuss and exchange views on technical matters. l I therefore announce the formation of "The Squerryes Group" - all are wecome to join : email to: Squerryes@aol.com for more info. Peter}} | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 277 Registered: 1-2008 |
Admittedly the Toyota Estima doesn't have the same kind of following that Rolls and Bentleys do, although there are at least 3 clubs/forums devoted to it and its derivatives (of which there are at least 6 before adding in the HiAces and TownAces and many similar MPVs). However the TEOC one, which is based in the UK and therefore heavily biased towards UK residents, still has members in all corners of the world: Even Australasia. I understand how some clubs may come to a 'gentleman's agreement' not to step on each others toes, but I fail to see how it benefits the members themselves. Even in Blighty there are 2 major RR/B clubs (and maybe several smaller, looser associations) which all seem to be able to rub along together. However I was slowly coming to much the same conclusion as Peter. We 'fans of' the RROCA are a loose bunch of like-minded individuals who see the DIY repair and maintenance of our cars as just another part of ownership. In that regard the RROCA (along with its wiki and the Tee-One Topics) is an invaluable source of the necessary information wihout which most owners would be just fumbling in the dark. As such it's our duty to help as much as possible to ensure that this forum never fades away through lack of funds or volunteers to keep it going. With most of the founders rapidly approaching their dotage this could soon become a serious problem. On the other hand, from what I understand of the UK RR/B clubs they are stuck with the old attitude that only RR trained mechanics using only RR approved tools and genuine RR produced components should be allowed anywhere near the mechanicals of our cars. This is hardly the ethos that we and the RROCA espouse and could cause a lot of arguments if repeated in the wrong quarter. How many of them have forgotten that the design brief for the production of every RR/B model has been to use the best proven technology available at the time? How would Henry Royce react if he was told that all failed or worn out parts had to be replaced with exactly the same ones even though newer and better components had come along in the intervening decades? I think he would be shocked and dismayed. Especially since he was more than happy to farm out some work or even buy in such components as he thought were more than adequate to be included in the build of a Rolls or Bentley. All too many owners seem to see it as a desecration to change even the smallest part other than with an identical one even when the original design is no longer available. At this rate we will soon see every car of some models taken off the road and future generations will have to pay to enter a museum to see them. I think Peter has got it right. There is more than enough room for another RR/B club more along the lines of the RROCA and I shall be contacting him about his 'Squerreyes Group' shortly. | ||
| Chris Browne Frequent User Username: chrisb Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2010 |
Dear all, I am a huge fan of the RROCA site and have benefitted considerably from advice and help from its many members and officers.I must take issue with Jan regarding the attitude of UK clubs who allegedly actively discourage members from getting their hands dirty on Rolls-Royce or Bentley products. I am a member of the foremost RR and Bentley club in the UK and they have actively encouraged DIY work on proper motor cars for very many years. Many model specific technical seminars are held at the club's HQ each year and although it may have been the case in times past that the "party line" was that the cars must not be worked on by anyone other than factory trained personnel, it is most definitely not the club's stance now. Having attended many of these seminars, I am constantly amazed that the Club instructors operate RR and B service businesses during the week yet they are prepared to give of their time and experience to enable us lesser mortals to service our own vehicles when they could just as easily encourage owners to bring the cars to their commercial premises. Just wanted to set the record straight. Rant over! Keep up the good work RROCA. Kind regards, Chris Browne | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2010 |
Chris Yes, Jan does like to go on a bit !! I think it important that both RROCA and RREC appreciate that The Squerryes Group poses no threat to either - many of us belong to each, we just want to do some things in our own informal way, meet up a couple of times a year,put faces to names,talk about te}chnical matters, attend Charity Fund-Raising Events with some kind of a Corporate identity, and so on. Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 279 Registered: 1-2008 |
I make no apologies for my error re. the current attitudes of the UK RR/B clubs. I've often perused the public parts of their websites and always come away with the impression that most, if not all, of their meets are held in surroundings akin to, and with the same dress code as, a Hunt Ball or similar. So things may be completely different in the Members Only sections, but how would I know? I can't even look at them unless I pay the membership and joining fees. £95 (RREC) is a high price just to find out if I fit in with the way the club is run! Frankly I'm as common as muck, but I would take exception to anyone looking down his nose at me just for that. However is this a new club or a revamp of an old one now run by the parent company? It seems that you can join for free, but whether there are (paid) levels of membership after that I couldn't say - until I've joined, of course. I still feel that there is more than enough room for another RR/B club. With so many RR/B cars of every era being still used on a weekly basis or more often we're in little danger of them becoming rare or unusual and the market for membership of a club should be increasing rather than shrinking. | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jan It's time, just for once in your lifetime, that you curtailed your verbocity !! The Squerryes Group is to be a Loose Association of like minded individuals interested in technical matters - all are welcome to join - there is NO Joining Fee - there are NO Annual Subs - there are NO (paid) levels of Membership, ALL are equal. The above should settle Jan's concerns !!!!!! Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 280 Registered: 1-2008 |
Don't get your knickers in a twist Peter. I didn't mention the Squerryes Group. How could I? It doesn't exist yet. My beef was and is that the existing UK clubs are so tight lipped about what goes on 'behind the public facade' of their forums. Just the opposite of the RROCA and the reason why I suggested a UK affiliate in the first place. Sufficiently succinct for you? | ||
| Peter Talbot Frequent User Username: squerryes Post Number: 89 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jan Don't wear knickers - prefer thongs !! Yes,I am quite amazed at your succinct comment - it must be a first !! Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 290 Registered: 1-2008 |
Peter. The UK thong is a different beastie to the Antipodean one. They wear them on their feet!  |
