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Lawrence Heasman
Frequent User
Username: lheasman

Post Number: 62
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2011 - 13:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I need to top up the power steering resrvoir in my 89 Spur. The book recommend Castrol TQ2. I can only get TQ3. Will this be OK to use. The person in the shop said it was, but thought I best check with 'the oracle' first.
Thanks.
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 127
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2011 - 14:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I use whatever the least expensive off brand of Dexron II or Dexron III that I can find for my '89 Spur. All have the same ratings. I know, I know...sacrilege. I can't believe my car still steers after 8½ years of ownership. :-)
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1296
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2011 - 15:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lawrence/ Unless the 'oracle' disputes this, TQ3 is an upgrade of TQ2 - probably got a little more vanilla in it! If you are losing fluid check that the hose from the reservoir to the pump is not leaking.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 710
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2011 - 18:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dextron III is the long life and better equivalent of the II.

But about twice the price. So if you can get II for your steering use that, III will certainly work.

Use III for your ATF when you change it.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2288
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 13 January, 2011 - 09:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There are better fluids than transmission for the steering, as transmission fluids have friction enhancers. A straight hydraulic oil is best, and I use LHM as it is a convenient fluid already in use on our vehicles. LHM is a very good and stable lubricant, hence its preferred use in the hydraulics of our cars rather than Dexron.

Transmission fluids are optimised for gearchanges and not lubrication, and they are in fact poor lubricants. That they are used in power steering systems is largely an accident.

As transmission fluid is a poor lubricant, I wouldn't be bothered which Dexron you use, cheap or expensive, Dexron II, IID, III, Elf G3 Synth or whatever, as they are all a poor but convenient compromise for a proper fluid. Most steering systems are so robust that the poor lubrication is not an issue in a newish car, but to use a proper fluid is a good idea especially given the touchiness of our steering racks and the age of them.

If you use a mineral oil fluid marked as Steering Fluid, it will be far better, usually being a simple red aircraft hydraulic fluid. If it states compatible for GM systems where Dexron is approved, it will be a worthwhile upgrade. Others include Formula Shell Power Steering Fluid http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/FormulaShellPowerSteeringFluid.pdf

and Nulon http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Power_Steering_Fluid/

RT.
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James Feller
Prolific User
Username: james_feller

Post Number: 160
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, 13 January, 2011 - 09:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lawrence, at the end of the day all power assisted steering systems in modern cars utilise simple transmission fluid. Use a good quality one and don't over fill, use the dip stick under the cap. I would recommend as Bill says, you check why the level has dropped. This is one item I have found, with both my RR&B cars, is good in that you don't normally get slow dribbles or 'weeps' provided all your hoses are good and the rack is ok.
Very different story with engine oil leaks....you will chase these FOREVER.... Normally the PAS should only ever need checking. The only time you would need to 'top up' is if there is a leak. I have the fluid drained and refreshed annually as a matter of course. The PAS system, if no leaks, should never require 'topping up'.

Cheers

J
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James Feller
Prolific User
Username: james_feller

Post Number: 161
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, 13 January, 2011 - 09:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

R,

hmm interesting, so what your saying is the Mineral oil used in the Braking and Suspension systems of our SZ cars can be used to an advantage to our PAS, rather than normal Transmission fluid 'marked power steering fluid'?

is this the case?

if so I might give it a go and see how it goes. But as I stated above both my cars have never leaked a drop of PAS fluid.....again I know I should not state this quite so openly as both will now undoubtly spill their guts in some unique Crewe way...

:o)

J
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2289
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 13 January, 2011 - 09:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Incidentally, we are not alone in considering the choice of steering fluids and, although a minor topic, perhaps we could take note of developments in the industry.

For example, in the early 1980s, GM recommended that all GM steering systems be refilled with Power Steering fluid instead of Dexron automatic transmission fluid after a long spate of early wear in the systems. We should take note, as most of our cars have Saginaw (GM) steering pumps and SY Series I cars even have Saginaw steering boxes.

Elsewhere, Mercedes-Benz used ATF in the W123 cars but changed to Power Steering Fluid in the W124 after the transmission fluid led to premature wear. The Mercedes-Benz spares division sells huge numbers of rebuilt steering boxes for W123 cars but virtually none for the W124 cars (yes, M-B were still using steering boxes long after they had become an industry obsolescence).
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2290
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 13 January, 2011 - 10:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

James, I mean that fluid marked Steering Fluid is usually just red aircraft hydraulic fluid. That aircraft fluid is good stuff and very cheap, and would no doubt even do just as well as LHM for our braking and suspension systems were the truth tested.

I didn't mean to imply that Dexron is marketed in packs branded as steering fluid.

Similarly, LHM is good stuff, so I have trialled it successfully in the SZ power steering. That is mainly so that I am not introducing yet another fluid type to the garage shelf: LHM is at least as good as but more expensive than the rest, but convenient as we use it already. As you would hope, there has been no difference so far between the Dexron and LHM, but the LHM does promise longer life for the system than when using Dexron, as would aircraft fluid.
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Bill Hart
Yet to post message
Username: bill_hart

Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2015
Posted on Sunday, 05 July, 2015 - 00:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello everybody. I'm new to this forum, but not to RR/Bentley cars. I have a modest collection of old cars, including a '79 Rolls Corniche drophead and a recently acquired '95 Turbo R. In the past I have owned an '89 Turbo R, 3 Arnages and a VW Bentley GT. However, none of the later model cars were as satisfying to me as my original Turbo R, especially in consideration of the money involved, so I sold them.
The current '95 Turbo R, VIN 55371, was a tremendous bargain and so pristine cosmetically that I just had to have it. It came with some mechanical issues, however. I have replaced the rear spheres and the drivers power seat module. The only remaining problem is in the power steering, which is heavy at all times and, intermittently, seems to have no boost at all. There are some very minor leaks around the pump and rack/pinion, but nothing which seems dire or unusual. As a first resort I'm going to try some Seafoam cleaner, but my expectations are not high. Plan B, of course, involves the pump and/or rack/pinion.
I have gained the impression that the pump is a generic Saginaw model, not bespoke Bentley, which was used on other cars. Is that true? If so, it might save me a bundle of money.
All diagnostic info/advice will be greatly appreciated.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 328
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 05 July, 2015 - 08:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bill welcome to the Forum. My own 1997 turbo R 60128 with 32000 miles also has heavy power steering at all times I thought that was a bit odd but as I hadn't driven any other one to compare, Anyway maybe someone will help both of us.

Richard.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 379
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Sunday, 05 July, 2015 - 23:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In case it helps, my rack leaked at 60.000 miles (Continental R #52020, 1994) and I renewed it. The new one is much much much much much lighter. So it might be after all a rack issue?

Lluís
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1458
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2015 - 01:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just curious, but did any of these cars have a variable assist setup? If so, something with that could be going wonky. I don't know whether Crewe ever produced a variable assist system.

There's also a good article on the steering racks, Racking Your Brains, by Richard Treacy, in the technical library.

Brian
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Roderick Waite
Prolific User
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 128
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2015 - 01:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Bill, and welcome from me too. You have to experience the steering without the engine running to appreciate 'heavy'. My '84 Spirit had a spate of engine stalls a couple of years ago, often in embarrassing places, and you would not believe the force required to turn the wheel ... interesting about the fluid ... but what happens when the ATF mixes with the LHM? I remember the Old Days, and what happened if you mixed Lockheed fluid with Girling ...

Rod
'84 Spirit
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1385
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 07 July, 2015 - 21:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bill,

Can we assume that the belt(s) are all correct and tight? Not past their sell by date etc?

Usually the pump will be noisy if there's a problem with it.

Both are usually reliable (in operation but not as far as weeps are concerned) although I have had a couple where the bottom bearing has failed giving very odd results.
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Bill Hart
New User
Username: bill_hart

Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 08 July, 2015 - 00:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul,
The pump isn't noisy and seems o.k.except for a minor leak which appears to be from the hose(s). Belt is tight and not slipping.
I think the problem is probably in the rack, which may be why the snake oil I added (hope springs eternal) seems to have helped.
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Bill Hart
New User
Username: bill_hart

Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2015
Posted on Thursday, 09 July, 2015 - 03:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Disaster! I went out to drive my '95 Turbo R and it won't go in gear. Engine started right up, and gear selector operates as usual, except nothing happens. The car won't go into any gear. Car was running normally when I last parked it. Help!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1475
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 09 July, 2015 - 04:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

This is a not uncommon problem. The first thing to do is check your fuses and cutout. The next (and probably more likely) is to check where the connector is on the gearbox/transmission and pop it off to see if crud/corrosion has managed to invade it. If so, try cleaning things up, on the male connectors and spraying the female side with something like Caig DeOxIt or similar (TV Tuner Cleaner also works). Then see if the problem resolves itself.

The gear selector is nothing more than switch that controls the electrical gear selector that's mounted on the transmission itself.

If the above doesn't resolve your problem then you're likely going to have to tear into the gear selector itself, and I hope you won't have to.

Brian
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1476
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 09 July, 2015 - 04:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

See also Issue 91 of Tee-One Topics.
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Frequent User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Thursday, 09 July, 2015 - 17:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To answer Lluis' post of on Sunday, 05 July, 2015 - 11:27 pm:
I suspect that the rack you got from overhaul has the RR spool valve installed. The difference between the Bentley and the RR rack is precisely the spool valve. This is the part of the rack with the splined shaft where the steering column is attached to.
The Bentley steering feel is hard and the RR is super soft. This is done on purpose. Nothing wrong with either rack.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 331
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Thursday, 09 July, 2015 - 19:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean thank you for info as I also thought that my Bentley was a bit too stiff.

Richard.
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Bill Hart
New User
Username: bill_hart

Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2015
Posted on Friday, 10 July, 2015 - 01:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Brian,
It turned out that the fuse was blown. I was in full panic mode. You guys are terrific! Replaced fuse and everything was o.k., until it blew again. Guess I have a short somewhere. I need to get the car to a lift, but it is presently stuck in park. If I were to put in another fuse and put the car in drive and leave the engine running would I be able to drive the car even if the fuse blows again?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1479
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 10 July, 2015 - 02:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

I cannot say with absolute certainty, but I believe that once a given gear is selected it will "stay selected" even if the fuse blows. You could certainly experiment with that in the controlled environment of your driveway or on streets very close to home.

You would, of course, have to replace the blown fuse to put the car back into park.

If the fuse is blowing rather quickly my theory should be easily confirmed or refuted. It is rather difficult to get to what you need to get to without having the car on a lift or up on jack stands or ramps. I've grown to love my set of ramps when I want to work at home and I can easily get enough working room without the need for a lift.

Brian, who hopes the ultimate solution involves things simple to locate and repair

P.S. This would be an excellent time to spin off a thread of its own and to include photos of what you've found and what you did after things get underway.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 271
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 10 July, 2015 - 06:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Automatic Transmission Fluid can be used in emergency in LHM systems.

I had a Citroën CX which blew a pipe. No LHM or ATF. So 20w50 and 10% diesel fuel.
It worked fine. Including the power steering.

LHM will be fine in power steering. ATF also has a friction modifier for the gearbox clutches. This is not needed in the power steering.

British Leyland on some cars used 20w50 engine oil in the power steering.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 332
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Friday, 10 July, 2015 - 09:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill on looking through some of the Invoices for work done on my 1997 Turbo R I found the following information Car recovered in with no drive, Vehicle drive lost due to continual blowing of main fuse for gear selector. Stripped out gear selector control panel and removed selector assembly, checked all wiring for shorts and gear selector for operation. No fault found.

There was also a cruise control fault some of the next text has two faults talked about.

Removed o/s knee roll panel and checked steering control module and steering tilt motor for wiring faults. No fault found removed the gearbox actuator and stripped down replacing the relays inside the unit. Re-assembled actuator assembly replaced speed output sensor as found to be faulty.

Road tested car but still fault evident with speed control system. Fuses are now not blowing.

Bill I hope that the above helps you to sort out your problem.

Richard.
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Todd Keleske
Experienced User
Username: toddk

Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2017 - 13:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

RE: 2002 Azure; Power Steering Fluid
Your Input Pls,
Parts guy recommended Pentosin CHF 11S.
I just happen to have damn near a full can that I use in my wife's 2004 Volvo C 70.
Cheer's,
Todd
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2283
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2017 - 14:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Todd,

Unless I'm misreading IETIS for your car the steering fluid used is, like a lot of the older cars, transmission fluid and Dexron at that. What color is the stuff already in there?

Pentosin CHF 11S is very much like HSMO, and is dark green. I don't think that's what's in your power steering pump and it should be a simple matter to check.

Of course, based on the input of both Richard Treacy and Bob_UK it would seem that the use of LHM/HSMO would be just fine. If you download the RR & Bentley Parts, Repair, Restoration & Other Resources Compilation and search on 'Pentosin' the first thing you'll find is a table where I list the properties of HSMO and other close variants. CHF 11S falls almost dead center between HSMO and HSMO+ (AKA LHM and LHM+).

Brian
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Todd Keleske
Experienced User
Username: toddk

Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2017 - 15:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian, Thx for your immediate reply.I'll chk it out in the AM as per your dissertation. As always...Much appreciated !!
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Todd Keleske
Experienced User
Username: toddk

Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 26 April, 2017 - 04:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good Day Brian,
CHF Used in Volvo is as you said, green. Within my Bentley is Red. I have a container of Pennzoil ATF,
GM Dextron II Ford Mercon, also Red. That should do the trick ?? Or shpuld I go with Dextron III ?
Thank You Brian !!
Todd
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Jeff Young
Grand Master
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 348
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 26 April, 2017 - 06:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think the primary differences are the friction modifiers (or lack thereof in the case of CHF/LHM), and since the friction modifiers aren't used in power steering systems, I don't think it matters.

Still, if you mix red and green you'll lose the ability to tell if it's dirty and/or burned. So I'd throw in the Dexron II that you have.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 90
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 26 April, 2017 - 07:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On this subject, I have installed an inline magnetic filter in the return line of my Shadow 1 (steering box not rack and pinion), as was recommended on another thread. I finda that there is now a slight noise at idle and full lock as if there is a fluid shortage.
Might this be the restriction in the filter does anyone have experience?
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Todd Keleske
Experienced User
Username: toddk

Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 26 April, 2017 - 08:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff, Plan on doing just that....You guys make my life easier with your expertise and knowledge thereof. I just don't want to screw anything up :-)
Don't shoot from the hip anymore !! Todd

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