| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Greene Experienced User Username: benzjag Post Number: 181 Registered: 12-2012 |
Would anyone know the actual temperatures on the temperature gauge on a Shadow II? The white band suggests normal, but I would like to know what is the actual temperatures. Richard | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 578 Registered: 11-2017 |
You could use an infared and point to the outlet neck and you will have the actual numerical figure. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 560 Registered: 05-2016 |
Hi Richard, The standard thermostat on the Silver Shadow 11 opens at 88 degrees Celsius so - as Robert says - if you point an infrared thermometer at the thermostat housing you should feel the top hose to the radiator getting hot at that stage if the thermostat is working properly. The bottom hose from the radiator should remain relatively cool if the radiator and cooling fan are working correctly. I've recently fitted a 78 degree thermostat (from Flying Spares) and since doing so the temperature gauge needle barely rises as high as the very lower part of the white zone on the gauge. I'm not sure if the cooler opening thermostat is a good idea but I always let the car warm up well before driving and never push it too hard. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2996 Registered: 06-2009 |
There is also enough "slop" in the temperature transmitters and gauges that the same spot on the gauge in two different examples could very likely be two different temperatures (both within normal limits). I posted quite a while back on IR temperatures I took over the course of several days driving at the height of summer. Search on the phrase "within normal limits" or for WNL and you'll likely find that topic. I've also noticed, across makes and V8s, that 210 degrees F tends to be about the center of normal limits during cooler weather. If you've got multiple V8s take the time to do IR temperature readings on all of them once thoroughly warmed up and near to where the thermostat allows the hottest water to head toward the radiator (and during the same weather conditions - and if you're using AC make sure that's factored in and either used, or not used, consistently when collecting data). Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2997 Registered: 06-2009 |
Larry, Just as a data point, everything I've ever been able to find indicates that running consistently too cool is worse for engine longevity than running consistently on the hotter side of normal. I would not suggest fitting a thermostat that opens significantly below the OEM opening temperature, and 10 degrees C is way low. The design of the cooling system in the SY is such that coolant keeps cycling through the engine to encourage fast heating until it reaches the temperature where the thermostat is fully open and blocking the bypass. If this occurs early, and the coolant is going to the radiator, you will run significantly cooler than is ideal in all probability. Brian | ||
| Jeff McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 656 Registered: 05-2007 |
The gauge is a relative thing. They aren't designed to reflect 'actual' temperature but to show abnormal behaviour. They are calibrated by Smiths, presumably with specs from the factory at Crewe. BUT. All other UK made cars using Smiths gauges at the time had a voltage regulator on the +ve wire so that the gauges run at 10v. RR decided not to include this and as a result the gauges usually show hotter than they should. Lucas made a small 10v regulator but they are pretty crappy. Nowadays you can buy a small solid state adjustable regulator on ebay for small change I cant remember exactly how it's described/called on ebay but you should have no trouble finding one. They are adjustable down to 8v. After the new engine was installed in SRH20280 I drove home and once I was up to 110kph on the highway the needle pointed straight up for the whole journey - I had it set at 10v. .  | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 561 Registered: 05-2016 |
Thanks Brian, you're correct. However read what Flying Spares have to say about their 78C thermostat which they specially commissioned for older RR cars, their experience had been that big end bearing wear might be reduced by using a lower temperature thermostat. I'm inclined to agree with you but I plan to do a few engine temperature tests using the 78C stat and see what the normal coolant temperature is, if it reads below 190F I will revert to using the 88C thermostat and do another few tests to make sure the coolant temperature doesn't exceed 210F. My coolant passages look very clean as does the inside of my radiator and I flush the coolant and replace with a 50/50 mix every couple of years. However I never seem to be able to drain out all the old coolant, the most I can manage to extract is about 12 litres and that includes what comes out when I undo the heater hose clips, bottom hose and the drain plugs in each block. According to my manual there should be 15 or 16 litres in the system (can't recall the exact amount the system holds as I don't have the manual to hand but it's more than 12 litres. | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 211 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,...... I am of the school that would like the temp gauge to sit a little lower as a cooler running engine is better than a overheating engine. Its also less stressed. Graham. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2998 Registered: 06-2009 |
Anything is better than an overheating engine. But anything within normal limits, as designed for said engine, is not overheating. SY Operating Temperature Data Within Normal Limits: Operating Temperature Range Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2999 Registered: 06-2009 |
Near the very end of the topic, Within Normal Limits: Operating Temperature Range, I just again took note on rereading of John Kilkenny's observation in the next to last message in that topic: Because we mainly drive late model cars where the coolant needle always sits neatly in the middle of the gauge it's easy to get concerned when our pride and joy shows signs of possible overheating on very hot days, a long period of stop/start driving or an extended uphill stretch. One of the things that many do not know is that a very great many of the temperature gauges in modern cars in reality are not gauges in the conventional sense. They are explicitly designed to do exactly as he says, sit firmly at center, so long as the car is within its operating temperature range. They are, in essence, idiot lights as they will only go up (and most have a little idiot light associated with them) if the car is actually overheating. When I had my Jaguar XJ8L, I vividly remember this being discussed with vigor on several of the Jag forums, and someone in the Jag aftermarket world who calls himself The Jag Wrangler created a product he calls RealGauge that makes both the temperature and oil pressure gauges give actual readings. These days people tend to panic any time they notice actual variability in gauge readings, if they notice them at all (and many don't - the unobservant are always among us). We've had decades of "idiot lights" and faux gauges that lull us into believing that our cars are actually running at one set temperature/pressure on a constant basis, when anyone who's had cars with actual functioning gauges knows this is never the case. The more sensitive the gauge the wider the range of variability is likely to be as various environmental factors and engine speed/load factors come into play. Even the SY temperature gauge will normally vary, and can shoot up quite a bit if you've been tooling along at highway speed with the AC on and suddenly hit stop-and-go or completely stopped traffic and have to sit. It may not be perfectly accurate in terms of what the temperature is, but it does give readings over a range, and where things fall within that range will vary naturally as a matter of course. My oil pressure reading varies quite a bit as well between engine idle speed and driving speeds, too. I long ago adjusted to this being the normal behavior in my SY cars. Getting used to real gauges, that actually show normal variability, can be quite the psychological challenge if you've been conditioned to faux gauges that really don't move by intentional design. Brian | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 212 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,.... Well in my Datsun 1600 the temp gauge sits about 1cm above the cold mark and that's normal, there is a dot half way around the gauge and if ever the temp makes that mark I stop and let her cool down. I have NEVER had a vehicle overheat. In my Nissan Pathfinder (95 model) though the look of the temp gauge is a little like in Camilla her normal temp is just on 1cm above the cold mark, I have at times had it make the half way point but as this engine now has 960,000klms on it and a slight lowering of compression when it gets to that point I notice a little pre-ignition if the engine is under load like going up a hill. But if cooler the same hill the engine is just fine. Again if the gauge were to move above the half mark I would stop and let her cool down. ON the 18th December was a hot day here in Melbourne with temps just short of 40deg C. That day I took Camilla into the city and into stop-start traffic, Her gauge made it to about 2mm from the end of the solid white line, since I acquired her, her normal temp position seems to be the half way point. I am only just getting used to this, but I would like just for piece of mind to have the gauge sit a little lower. I did also notice the next day where there were signs the radiator had leaked in the past, it had leaked so now I WILL have to have the radiator pulled apart, cleaned and rebuilt. The amount of fluid lost was negligible, maybe a cup full at best. Graham. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 562 Registered: 05-2016 |
Hi Graham, Before going to the trouble of removing the radiator first check all the seals in the header tank and the gasket at the steam valve cover. There are 3 seals and 1 gasket. Leaks often come from these areas and a coolant trace along the centre line where the header tank has been pressed is often a tell-tale sign that there's a leak in a gasket or seal. Also check all the hose connections and below the water pump for traces of coolant leak. Taking out the rad is easy in itself but the bonnet/hood needs to be removed to lift it out. If you have to remove the hood make sure to carefully mark the outline of the hinges first as otherwise it can be a PITA to line it up afterwards. There's also a possibility that the viscous fan is not working properly, the fan coupling can lose it's efficiency over time, I recently replaced mine with one from a Land Rover (at much less cost than the usual RR suppliers item) and my temperature gauge needle stayed lower in built=up traffic afterwards. | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 213 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,.... I'll post a picture later as I'll be going out to the workshop in about 5 mins but the leak is clearly from the top tank on the radiator. The expansion tank is fine as is all the rest of the system. I did think about how the heck I was going to get that radiator out and came to the conclusion I'd have to remove the hood. The viscous coupling is fine but I may pull it apart and put new oil in it while I have the chance. Better to be safe I guess. Well I need a fresh cup O tea and I guess I'll head out to take those pics, then continue polishing Camilla. Graham. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Experienced User Username: wm20 Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2006 |
Further to Larry's comment. We ran a fleet of L300's and when driving down from Springwood to Artarmon one morning the temp gauge went into the red. So I stopped. I was not happy because it had just recieved a 400,000 service. Long & short of it the head was toast so we got one fitted at Pendle Hill Wreckers. From then on it was always overheating & Mitsubishi blamed the aftermarket head we fitted ( Mitsubishi had none & had no idea when they would be available ) so we took it back to the Wreckers & they replaced the head under warranty. Still kept on overheating so it went back a 3rd time. When I came to pick it up they showed me the problem. They blocked off the radiator, and ran the engine till the thermo fan kicked in, we could hear it roaring away. He then placed his bare hand in and grabbed the fan, it stopped spinning. He then fitted a reconditioned fan and pulled ours apart while I waited. Not drop of viscous coupling fluid in it , coupling plate was rusted so it had not been working for a very long time. Went back & checked the Mitsubishi dealer service report, big green tick next to the fan, apparently all that means is it was there. Rolls Royce connection, we had a couple of cars that always seemed to be running hotter so I took one of them to a friends workshop. Smoking was not the Devils work in those days & the mechanic stood about 2' from the radiator and blew a nice big smoke ring. It just wafted and vanished. When I came back to collect the car he did the same thing & I watched it get sucked through the grille . That he said Trev is the difference between a fan that works & one that dosn't and he said the only reason the car was not a mobile kettle was the efficency of the electric fan linked to the AC. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 658 Registered: 10-2008 |
Graham, we changed the rad on my Shadow1 without removing the hood. a piece of card over the matrix, and we lifted it out over the fan. Similarly with an early Mulsanne. The shadow matrix was scaled up, and the Mulsanne leaked along the top seal. Mark | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 214 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH9lh0_E0Ec Graham. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 563 Registered: 05-2016 |
Hi Graham, If you're positive that the radiator solder is leaking from the area shown in the photo then you'll obviously need to get the leak fixed, however in my experience a slight leak at the top hose clamp will produce the same affect as the coolant drips down and settles on the lip of the radiator top section creating the impression that the radiator is leaking. If you're lucky that may be the case on your car. Having removed my radiator I leak tested it by connecting the top inlet hose to the lower outlet hose by joining the with a length of 2" steel pipe and hose clamps. I then attached a small hose with a pressure gauge to the small inlet pipe at the top of the rad and a similar length of small hose from the gauge to an air gun clamped and all the hose connections tightly. I injected air until the gauge read 15 PSI and watched the gauge which remained steady, after about a half hour the gauge was still reading 15 PSI so I was satisfied that there was no pressure leak from the radiator. Having reinstalled the radiator and header tank (new seals fitted to the tank) and flushed & refilled the coolant and let the engine run I noticed a coolant deposit exactly where yours is. I traced the leak to a minor drip from the top hose connection and cured it by tightening that clamp. A tell-tale sign of a top hose clamp leak on your car is the missing paint in the area of the top hose connection on the rad, antifreeze has a corrosive effect on paint. If you run your finger under the top hose/rad joint you may feel a slight dampness, if not then the problem may well lie with the radiator itself. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 581 Registered: 11-2017 |
May I suggest using a radiator hose sock to collect deposits . They are great for collecting junk that is circulating within the cooling system. They aew easily installed in the top hose and removed when you're satisfied with the results. | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 215 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,.... Larry, I am very sure the leak is in a very small break in the solder as I have watched it myself. You will notice there are sections where the paint has come off like you have mentioned but in this case it is due to me being a little naughty with the pressure washer at work when I cleaned the tank the first time. I had thought about just draining the coolant enough so the level is below the top tank then using a solder iron or mini gas torch to just reheat/melt the solder to close up the small crack so as to not have to remove the radiator. Graham. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 564 Registered: 05-2016 |
Hi Graham, I think it's silver solder. I would be inclined to take the rad to a dedicated radiator repair specialist as they should have the equipment to pressure test it after fixing. I don't doubt that Mark removed his rad without removing the hood, I tried but couldn't manage it, I could raise it almost all the way up but the hood would get in the way, that was after having removed the viscous coupling, fan and cowl. Maybe I could have removed more stuff at the front of the engine but I thought it was easier to simply remove the hood which gave me a lot more access. If you do decide to remove the rad be careful when rethreading the cooler pipes for the automatic transmission afterwards, it's easy to cross thread them as the fittings are in an awkward place to access unless you have the car raised. | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 216 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,..... Thanks Larry, duly noted. Graham. | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Frequent User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 205 Registered: 05-2005 |
I have removed the radiator of SRH30264 in the forecourt of an Alice Springs radiator shop, had it repaired and then reinstalled it single-handedly in a standard working day using basic tools.  | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 659 Registered: 10-2008 |
Larry, the Shadow was a long time ago, but from memory we took the header tank, all of the cowling and the fan off.It took 2 of us to lift and manouvere it out. The Mulsanne is easier and the fan does not need to be removed. The transmission pipes on the Mulsanne sheared when we removed them- expensive as the ends are non standard, and hence had to buy from a RR supplier. Mark | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 565 Registered: 05-2016 |
Hi Mark, I replaced the transmission cooler pipes too, one of the flared ends wouldn't seal properly on refitting. When I saw the outrageous prices for the replacement pipes I decided to make my own from cunifer, luckily I was able to reuse the old fittings. It's a PITA getting the pipes back into place but at least the cunifer pipe is more flexible which made the job a little easier. I gave up on trying to manoeuvre the radiator out as I was afraid I would damage it so I decided to remove the hood, perhaps I should have persevered. |
