| Author | Message | ||
     Alexander New User Username: plumber Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Recently has my mechanic out to check out the lumpy idle Through out the testing he took of the distributor cap and placed the rotar arm inside to check spark and bang like a shotgun he crossed the terminals But the car ran and idled fined after he finished great I thought ,next day the car would not start called the mechanic back and he has traced the live wire on the coil not receiving the initial 12 volt to start this was proved as he linked in a live from the ignition switch and the car started fine Has he blown a fuse somewhere? could it be a faulty starter relay faulty ballast resistor ? I don't really wont to put a new live to the coil from the ignition to get the 12 volts on cranking only without trying to find the fault first Any help appreciated Alec | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1533 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Alec, What year is your car? Just to be clear - The car cranks but will not run? If he puts 12v to the coil the car will run ok If he takes the extra 12v wire off - the car continues to run or will it cut out? Are you getting 9v(ish) when cranking? Depending on year it could be either the starter relay or the ballast resistor. On a car with points it will not be the resistor, if that fails the car will crank and run whilst cranking but will cut out as soon as you stop cranking. I think both types get their feed from the same fuse. | ||
| Alexander New User Username: plumber Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Paul Thanks for the reply Its a 1978 You can crank car ok There is only 6volts to coil with engine off No cranking voltage to coil apart from 6 volts I only have one green wire from the positive side of coil going to ballast resistor I have checked all fuses under glove box only If it is the relay is there a way I can test to see if im getting the cranking voltage to the relay Thanks Alec | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1241 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Alec Have you checked that the input voltage to the ballast resister is correct. If so, the low voltage at the coil is probably caused by this unit. The loud bang you heard could have been a component of the ballast resister blowing up. Here is a great thread on ballast resisters, which may help you to track the fault. http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/17158.html My car is a series 1, but I believe the series 2 also uses a 9v coil, boosted to 12v when cranking. If this is true, I would not use your car if the coil has been hotwired to 12v, as the coil will eventually burn out. Geoff | ||
| Alexander Hoar New User Username: plumber Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Geof I've removed the plastic white connector to the ballast resistor and measured 8 volts and when reconnected the voltage at the coil is 7 volts I have four wires on the plastic connector White/ yellow goes to starter relay Two white wires giving me 8volts White/black ( does this go to the starter solenoild ) Can any one tell me where the start up 12 volts supply comes from Is it the stater solenoid or stater relay Thanks Alec Thanks Alec | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Looks like I've had two seperate problems at once I discovered I had a battery drain .The central locking switch was stuck causing the battery to read 9 volts This was giving me low readings at the coil and causing me to check parts that were ok The fun of owning cars So now I have about 10 volts on the green wire to the coil but if I connect this wire to the coil the voltage is 0 So something must be shorting As the distributor cap went BANG when the mechanic crossed the inside terminals of the distributor cap with the rotar blade Could he short circuit or damged something within the distributor to cause this fault Thanks Alec | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1242 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Alec If the car still won't start, it is looking increasing likely your hypothesis is correct. Strange that the engine ran for 30 mins after you heard the bang. One would expect the engine to have immediately refused to start. Geoff | ||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 393 Registered: 8-2012 |
The Shadow 2 has an Opus ignition unit. It could be that this has been damaged by the short circuit. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1535 Registered: 6-2006 |
Will it still run if you put a 12v feed to the coil? What voltage does that drop to when connected to the coil. ? If it does still run with the 12v feed that points to a non opus problem? When you say that it was as loud as a shotgun, do you mean literally? The only thing that I can think of for that would be a backfire in the exhaust? Without being there it's hard to tell. I would look at connections and fuses again. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1005 Registered: 9-2004 |
I like to think that the 9br is more to do as a amplifier! this amplifier ballast makes sure that the correct voltage is applied to the primary windings of the ign coil. This pix bit may help you do some tests.  Maybe a test on the dist moduel is needed if the starter motor operating solenoid is working ok as this shorts out one of the two resisters for starting the other third resister is used for the functon of one of the transisters. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Paul The car has been running fine up to this point ? The bang was like a 12 bore I was waiting for the birds to fall out the sky Here goes Battery charged and connected to car voltage is 12.50 On cranking battery voltage is 10.81 REMOVED PLASTIC CONNECTOR TO BALLAST RESISTOR test voltage to the wires SW key in run position 11.65 volts reduce to 8.65 on cranking Relay wire O volts with key in run position 9 volts on cranking CHECKED STARTER RELAY Removed cable to ballast resistor and tested terminal for cranking voltage 9 volts on cranking Would I be right in thinking there is not enough voltage at the starter relay to crank over the engine? Thanks Patrick great help I used your diagram to do the following test NEXT TEST removed ballast resistor and lost my knuckles in the process Measured the three resistors 1 = 0 ohms should be 7.6 to 9.2 2 = .73 ohms should be .72 to .80 3 = 1.6 ohms should be .9 to 1.0 There was continuity between 3,4 but not 5 Without trying to confused this anymore Key in run position remove green wire to coil and voltage is 9.9 volts Key in run position green wire back on coil no voltage Key in run position green wire on coil but removed black wire to coil now have 11.2 volts Car wont start will try your other suggestions Paul tomorrow Thanks Alec | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1007 Registered: 9-2004 |
Alex could you check to see if the amplifier has switching action. Connect voltmeter between coil '-' and a good earth. Remove distributor cap and crank engine until the ferrite rods of the timming rotor is in line with the pick-up module core, with the ign on the volts reading should be near enough battery volts. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Patrick I will try the test tomorrow Please excuse my question if it sounds obvious I've only limited knowledge of these things Do I remove the King lead from the coil to the distributor cap and leave the rotar blade on whilst the distributor cap is off whilst cranking the engine Thanks Alec | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1008 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec, the dist cap is removed off the distibutor as is the rotor arm. This is so you can line up the distributor timing rotor ferrite rod with the pick-up module core. This is test is carried out with no engine cranking. If this is ok then a test is needed on the unit its self. More to follow maybe. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thank you Patrick I would just like to check with you to make sure I'm doing the voltage test correctly I have to get the ferrite rod red arrow so the slot lines up with the module on the blue arrow Sorry if I sound vague this is something new to me Thanks Alec  | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1009 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alex,The ferrite rods are the eight dots on outer white disc attached to the distributor shaft below the red arrow. Just align one to the module blue arrow. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Patrick Got there at last Lined up a ferrite rod with module Got 11.05 volts battery is 12.35 What does this test confirm  | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1011 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec, this test is for the switching action of the amplifer unit. Not happy with the varriation in voltage, with the ingnition on voltmeter reading should be approximately battery volts. Check the amplifier unit; Insert an ammeter in serries with the white lead from the ingnition switch at the "SW" terminal of the ballast resister. Ensure two of the ferrite rods of the timing rotor are eqidistant from the pick-up module core. With the ignition on 5 - 6.5A should be shown on the meter.If so seperate the inline connector between the distributor and amplifier unit. Ammeter reading should remain unchanged.An increase of more than 0.5A indicates that the amplifier is faulty and should be replaced. If ok then a check on the pick- module next. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Patrick Firstly Thankyou very much for your help .Im truly grateful and learning something new I will do the next test on Thursday as I will be away all day on Wednesday Just to confirm so I don't make another ferrite rod error First make sure two ferrite rods are eqidistant from the pick up module Remove ballast resistor plastic connection connect one multimeter probe to Sw on plastic connector and other probe to SW terminal connector on ballast resistor Turn on ignition and test If reading is 5 to 6.5A remove plastic connector on ballast resistor other side with green ,black and red wire And the reading should be the same if increased by 0.5 faulty resistor Thankyou Alec | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Patrick Got back home early so had time to test Set 2 ferrite rods equidistant from the pick module Connected One probe on SW on plastic connector {I have two white wires to this point } and other probe on SW on terminal of ballast resistor Ignition on Set meter to 10a and got a reading of 0.13 Thanks Alec | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1014 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec, going back to your earlier posting I note the coil voltage was 6 volts that is ok however could you re check with the voltmeter between coil '+' terminal and a good earth. With the ignition on 4 - 6v should be shown. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Patrick I have just done the test Check voltage on the positive side of coil with a good earth and ignition on ,lined up one ferrite rod inline with pick up module and got 11 volts Done the same test but Set 2 ferrite rods equidistant from the pick module and got 0 volts Thanks Alec | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1540 Registered: 6-2006 |
Is the ignition feed going to the positive terminal? Could it have been reversed? | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1015 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec, " Done the same test but Set 2 ferrite rods equidistant from the pick module and got 0 volts" The voltage should be 4 - 6v'. Could you check the ignition coil with an ohmmeter for the continuity and resistance of the primary winding. Coil primary winding is measured between '+'and '-' terminals and should be 0.8-1.0 ohm at 20c. The coil type should be 13c12 unless it has been superseeded. Each terminal is fitted with a different type of Lucar to prevent the external cables from being incorectly connected. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Paul I thought I would draw a diagram to show you my set up as it's easier to explain The yellow wire that goes to the starter relay ,if I remove it from the terminal on the relay and test the terminal of the relay I only get 9.35 volts on cranking I'm not sure if this is correct I thought it should be 12volts as its a direct link to the coil When the mechanic put a link from a 12 volt supply straight to the positive side of the coil it started I haven't done that yet as I wasn't sure if I would damage any components So I guess I'm asking if I should get more voltage at the starter terminal or is 9 volts correct Thanks Alec  | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Patrick Between the positive and negative sides of the coil I have continuity Between the positive and negative sides of the coil I have a resistance reading of 4.1 ohms The coil on the car is new bought by the mechanic when the car would not start The old coil which he removed is the same make as the new one I have just checked the ohms resistance of the old coil between the positive and negative. terminals and get a reading of 2.1 ohms It also has continuity The make is intermotor ignition ? Thanks Alec  | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1247 Registered: 5-2012 |
Looks like you have a 12v coil. Are there any labels or markings to identify what particular type it is, within the intermotor range. Generally speaking, a 9v coil for a ballasted system should have a resistance of 1-2 ohms. A 12v coil should have a resistance of 3+ ohms. Geoff | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1016 Registered: 9-2004 |
"Generally speaking, a 9v coil for a ballasted system should have a resistance of 1-2 ohms. A 12v coil should have a resistance of 3+ ohms." Hi Geoff. yes with a contact ignition but NOT a RR breakerless system.Should be 0.9-1.1 ohms depending on temp. The coil out of interest for the Opus ignition system has a low winding resistance. There is a very high turns ratio between the secondary and primary windings. Could do a check on the secondary resistance should be 5000. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1250 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Patrick Thanks for the clarification. This does mean however that the coil on Alec's car, at 4.1 ohms, is way out of spec. Going back to Alec's problem, it appears to me the problem is with the distributor. When Paul asked him to crank the engine with a test light connected to the -ve terminal of the coil, Alec reported back that the "light glows on cranking". The light should have been flashing. My next step would be to pull out the distributor and check the printed circuit board for any signs of damage. When electronic components blow up, with a bang, it is generally obvious which one it is, from the burn marks. Alec posted an excellent article on repairing the Opus electronic ignition. It looks very doable - there are no propriety IC's in there, just discrete components (resistors, capacitors etc.) The switching appears to be carried out by a heavy duty transistor. All easily repairable. Of course, the wrong coil will be adding to the problems due to the much lower energy at the spark plugs, however I doubt this alone is causing Alec's car not to start. Just my tuppence worth. Geoff | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1251 Registered: 5-2012 |
I've just noticed that Brian has included a thread pointing to the article. http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/20690.html?1464196336 Well worth having a read and saving it. My car is the earlier points version, but I keep copies just in case I ever downgrade to a Series II at some later stage. Geoff | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Geoff As you say the coil albeit the wrong one is not the main reason for the car not starting I will replace the coil as a matter of course Should I buy a 12v 1ohm resistance Lucas dbl198 Or a 9v 1ohm ? Patrick I done some more tests The wife is enjoying all the test as I'm out of the house more often and she gets to watch her tv programmes Here goes Tested voltage on the amplifier side of ballast resistor had no voltage at blue arrow point ? Lucas manual for testing says replace ballast resistor if no voltage at one or more terminals As this is the negative link from the coil I wasn't sure if this was correct On my previous test 4 -6 volts on testing positive terminal of coil to good earth with ignition on but I get 0 Would this indicate a fault in the amplifier? I got the chance to buy a second hand ballast resistor so I was going to replace it and take the chance this is the fault Thanks Alec  | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1541 Registered: 6-2006 |
You need a feed from somewhere else to test the coil and the distributor. Nothing the distributor does should make the coil positive read 0v. Even putting the coil negative to earth would not make the positive go to zero volts unless the coil had an almost complete short inside. To drop to 0 volts would probably blow the ignition feed though. Also I can not see how the negative terminal can glow on cranking if the positive terminal has 0 volts. If the blast resistor has no earth? the connectors on ballast resistor is on wrongly? Try disconnecting the suppressors on the coil. Did the bang definitely come from the distributor not the exhaust? | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1920 Registered: 6-2009 |
Alec, I hunted and hunted and hunted for precisely the diagram you have pictured above. Do you happen to have it without the arrow obscuring the key? If so, would you mind posting it sans arrow? I'd love to add this to my collection with the other ballast resistor block stuff. Life has been a bit crazy of late so I haven't been following this thread or its companion one on rollsroyceforums as closely as I might like to. Brian | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Brian Patrick posted the picture on the thread I just added a little arrow Please find a copy below Alec  | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1017 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec. My take on this is the incorrect coil. replace first with correct one. Will look up some other manufactures types if listed. Then re-check the tests, if ok do one more test an the ampifier for voltage drop.connect the voltmeter [dc moving coil type] between coil '-' terminal and a good earth point, make sure the timming rotor has ferrite rods equidistant from pick-up core with ign on should be 0 and 2v. If ok then a correct check on the dist pick-up module. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Patrick That is very kind of you I will replace the coil as you suggest any recommendations on which type to buy is much appreciated Then re-test I will do the voltage drop test tomorrow Hello Paul I believe the reason why the light bulb is glowing is because the positive side of the coil becomes live from cranking The live feed from the starter relay that goes to the ballast resistor to the coil is independent from the ignition live So when not cranking 0 volts but on cranking about 9.50 If I remove the positive wire to the coil and test with ignition on I have about 11 volts but as soon as I put it back on the coil it reads 0 volts I tried removing the condenser made no difference The bang was more from the distributor than exhaust There is no earth wire on the ballast resistor just bolted to the engine block The plastic plugs are design so they only fit back the way they came off The wiring has not been altered by me and has work normally up to the bang Are there any tests I can do on the distributor to see if it has a short Thanks Alec | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1921 Registered: 6-2009 |
Alec, Search this forum and RRforums regarding coils. I believe that Jim Walters discussed this at length when I was going through my ignition woes. If you don't find anything, let me know, and I'll check to see what I have in private correspondence since I know I discussed this at length, and I could have sworn it was on a public forum, not in e-mail. Brian | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Brian I will have a good search and read up If I get stuck I will ask for some help Thank you very much nice gesture Thanks Alec Alec | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 238 Registered: 6-2005 |
Alec, Here is a simple diagram of the ignition. With the ignition on, the normal state is for current flow through the coil so the positive terminal will be around 7 volts. When cranking, Resistor R is shorted to compensate for the drop in battery voltage caused by the starter motor operating. The spark is produced when the pickup signal causes the Opus Unit to cut the coil current and the fast collapse of the primary field generates a high voltage in the secondary. (My early shadow doesn't use a ballast resistor so I don't know the voltages) I agree with Geoff, your new coil is probably a 12 volt one. John  | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks John Just checked with the mechanic it' is a 12 volt coil apparently the old coil was also a 12 volt coil He replace the old coil about 3 years ago thats when he removed the original black type coil Patrick I could not do the voltage drop test I have lost ignition voltage to the ballast resistor and also the yellow oil lamp on the dash board won't light up with ignition on I need to trace this fault before I can do the test Now Pulling my hair out Alec | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1018 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec, after looking through my Intermotor and other ignition catalogues with double checking cross refrence etc, the end match with Intermotor is a coil 11310 this has the correct terminal set -up etc. The Lucas number 45270 is not listed in the catalogues I have at the moment, if in fact the number has not been superseeded. Alec what was your coil part number? The lucas one on my RR is not showiing the number so if any one has a coil removed and has the part number that would help confirm. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Geoff I think I need to remove the module and test as you say I was holding back from doing that I did a continuity test to earth from both arrows Blue arrow no continuity Red arrow continuity Fault to earth ? Or OK Thanks Alec  | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1542 Registered: 6-2006 |
Check and swap over your fuses. Did you test with another feed? Lost my hair years ago. . . Been working on these cars too long. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1019 Registered: 9-2004 |
Alec,no need to remove the module.To check pick-up module disconnect the in line connector between the distributor and amplifier. connect one lead of the ohmmeter to the centre terminal of the module connector and connect the other lead alternately to each of its outer terminals. Continuity of the windings of the module will be indicated by a reading on the ohmmeter.primary 2.5 ohms secondry0.9 ohms also check the adjusting screw, witch is near to the bottom limb of the module "E" shaped core has not been disturbed. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Paul I now need a hair transplant Ive checked continuity for all fuses all ok But will swap them over and check tomorrow I have not checked with another feed yet mainly because the live feed the mechanic said use is a permanent live not switch live with starting the car Should I link a 12 volt live bypassing the ballast resistor direct to the live side on the coil and see if she starts ? Thanks for your help in maintaining my sanity Alec | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 239 Registered: 6-2005 |
Alec, Re non working oil light. If you leave the live feed connected for too long you will flatten the battery and nothing will work. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 189 Registered: 4-2015 |
Quote: "I have not checked with another feed yet mainly because the live feed the mechanic said use is a permanent live not switch live with starting the car" I have been reading this thread with a bit of curiosity and this quote, as with some others, lack total sense due to either lack of punctuation, or grammer, or word choice, leaving a reader wondering what the writer means. That said, and I apologize for any hurt feelings, when I was a young apprentice at a restoration shop, it was the obvious primary directive whenever a customer said "the problem is not A, B, or C, because I have already checked them...", that the FIRST thing you do is to check A, B, and C. Secondly, in this case you have a mechanic who, either from ignorance of the system, or mistake, blew something up and then in a effort to "fix" things, appears to have installed the wrong coil... and so I ask...following on that earlier advice...should you believe ANYTHING this fellow says, and instead reverse everything he did and start over from square one? In other words, when you do not check something following on his "advice", you are in violation of that primary directive. Lastly, if the "damage event" was some sort of explosion, "like a shotgun" as I think you termed it, I would be inclined to believe that something has been severely destroyed and that a careful external search and observation of every ignition component, starting with the removal of the distributor and taking it to a workbench for that observation, might be in order. As someone else noted, when there is a catastrophic failure of the electrical kind, there are usually obvious traces, pieces, blackening, burnt smell, et cetera remaining as evidence. It may be entirely possible to locate the mystery problem simply by observation, rather than by electrical analysis. I'm just saying, and sorry for butting in. Good luck with it. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1252 Registered: 5-2012 |
"Two Countries separated by a common language" - Winston Churchill. Alec - I am sure it will be ok to try and run the engine for a short time with a live 12v feed to the coil. The coil your technician has fitted is 12v in any case and the distributor electronics are designed to take 12v for short periods, when cranking. I am sure that running the engine for a few seconds would not do any harm and would be a good test. Try it and let us know. I am finding this thread very interesting, even though I have an earlier car with points ignition. I have to agree with Christian that your technician is not filling us with a great deal of confidence. Geoff | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1020 Registered: 9-2004 |
The test proceedure. My posting starting with the voltage at coil test should confirm either way. Putting 12v feeds IMO can cause spikes more damage etc on this type of electronic ingnition system. Still just blame more on the mechanic.Still have all my hair but not the original color! I had thought before the start of testing all would know to have a fully charged battery. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Christian Thank you for the spectators point of view ! I sincerely apologise for any incorrect word choice, incorrect punctuation ! And incorrect grammar .Grammar spelt with an "a" in England and apologise spelt with a "s" You must appreciate that not all rolls Royce owner`s have a degree in the English language and qualified to teach in that field. I`m sure you may also find incorrect use of verbs,adverbs,nouns ,adjective and due to me using my mobile phone the odd spelling error with the use of auto correction relacing my words The written dialect between two people, trying to come to a common outcome will not always meet the editors approval to appear in The Sunday Times, but maybe be good enough for me to resolve MY problem with MY car. Unfortunately I do not obtain the necessary qualifications to prove correct punctuation ,grammar, however word choice may well be a continental problem you say elevator I say lift ? I`m sure Paul who asked the question was able to understand my reply and that is my ONLY concern . If as a spectator you are unable to read between the lines { English saying } I do once again apologise but I`m afraid I do not have the time to ensure my dialogue is articulated in a way that you comprehend I certainly do not intend to do a dissertation on my replies as I find the substance is lost in waffle I apologise to those concerned if you have not been able to unsterstand my replies due to the points mentioned above by Christian Paul if you are finding my replies difficult to understand please tell me and I will do my best to dot the `I' and cross my `T' or is it `I's and `T's ? To conclude and please take this reply in the manner it is intended if you have personal difficulties in comprehending any future dialogue given may I suggest you cease interest The mechanic who came out initially to resolve my lumpy idle make a mistake and gave me the idea of linking a direct 12 volt cable to the coil which on test ,stated the car I decided that before I opted for that option I would try and research and fault find the problem myself using the experience of fellow members on this site , Which Patrick has advise me not to do as this may harm the components within the distributor With the help from fellow members I have been trying to learn the technical language needed to carry out the various tests to try and identified the faulty component I could simply employee an auto technician to fault find the problem but then there would be no need for fellow members to share knowledge and help each other .It would also take the enjoyment out of learning something new and personally accomplishing a positive outcome. I do feel that my attention has been some what diverted form resolving my car problem to correcting one`s own English I would like to leave on a postive and Hugo { therefore } I will not be engaging in any dialogue regarding to correct or incorrect use of the Queens English language Patrick If you dont mind i would like to continue with your helpful tests . Thankyou kindly for taking the time to check the coil for me much appreciated The part number on the invoice for the igntion coil is SMP 11040 Unfortunately I have now lost the ignition live at the plastic connector which connects to the ballast resistor , also the yellow oil light has stopped working with ignition on as well. I have swapped all fuses as Paul suggested but this has not fixed the problem I will try and fix this fault first before any other testing Thanks Alec | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 660 Registered: 4-2009 |
Gentlemen, This thread has captivated many people who have thus far been silent. For me it has been a challenge to see when Alec's car will fire up - and I am sure I speak on behalf of a few regulars on this forum. Before anything gets out of hand may I respectfully ask we stay on topic and let us help Alec get his car up and running. Thanks to all who have participated thus far to get get us where we are now in this saga. This thread is like the famous films of the 70s where the pilot is unconscious and one of the passengers is being guided to land the plane on an open field. Except here we know the plane will not crash. Good luck Alec and once again thanks to all for the support. Omar | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 191 Registered: 4-2015 |
Defensive? No need. I apologized and begged pardon twice in advance. The point was simply to perhaps consider discounting the advice of someone who's efforts first blew the ignition up, and who then proceeded to provide the wrong coil, neither of which are very confidence inspiring. The other possibility is that you have a combination of coincidental problems considering that according to your first post, the engine ran fine after the "explosion event" and only failed to start the following morning. It is therefore entirely possible that the subsequent failure to start is unrelated to the explosion event, other than proximity in time, i.e. circumstantial. I will desist from further postings in this thread, but wish you good luck in finding the fault. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1253 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Alec Have you had any luck in restoring the 12v to the ballast resister? Have you checked for 12v at the fuse. John's diagram above is very useful in this regard - it really simplifies things, rather than having to wade through the wiring diagram. Geoff | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2016 |
Geoff Johns diagram was very help full Back on track now have ignition voltage to the ballast resistor and the oil lamp lights up ,On closer inspection the fuse holder on fuse 2 was not clamping the fuse properly the prongs were bent out? This link maybe of use to anyone trying to carry out similar tests http://www.mossmotoring.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Lucas-Test-Card-5.pdf Im waiting now for a new coil and second hand ballast resistor and will update thread on installation Patrick With regards to the pick up module test I would like to check my understanding with you ? Im not sure what you are referring to when you say each outer terminal Thanks Alec | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1021 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec, sorry module test is for a newer type. Distributor type is 35DE8.Looking for module testing notes on that type.  Shadow type.    Both types but not all correct for DE8 module testing. Will keep looking! Sorry for delay been tied up with the Grandchildren. | ||
| Martin Taylor Experienced User Username: martin_taylor Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2013 |
These opus systems are dated and junk by today's standards, one would not use one in an aircraft, get one of the aftermarket systems and bolt it in, that and a modern fuel pump and you are far more likely to get home. I spent many hours repairing these things on both Rover and Rolls Royce cars. These days $120 and a little bracket fabrication and you have a system you can simply forget. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thanks Patrick Dont put yourself out on my behalf with regards to the test for the module I will have a good search on the net You have been more than help full I've had my grandchildren here as well for roast beef and Yorkshire puddings Thanks Alec | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Just thought I would update the thread The second hand ballast resistor has arrived and has been connected. I now have the correct voltage at the coil at long last There is a capacitor which connects to the positive side of the coil 2 uf 150 volts When I re-connect this to the positive side of the coil is reduces the voltage at the coil to O So I assume there is a fault Can anyone please tell me what it is for? Thanks Alec | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1544 Registered: 6-2006 |
Good  Radio superstore. OK to leave off for now. Good luck. | ||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2010 |
I'm not sure if Paul is saying to get one at a radio superstore, or if his spelling checker is getting the better of him and he was saying that the purpose of the capacitor is radio suppression (i.e.: to keep the ignition from producing interference if you're listening to the radio). I suspect both are correct. ;) Cheers, Jeff. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1022 Registered: 9-2004 |
Can anyone please tell me what it is for? Paul is correct. Common name was "noise suppressor" also in my day "radio interference filter". | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2016 |
Thank you very much Paul and Jeff So I can now try and start her up without connecting the radio suppressor when I get the new coil Patrick I know this should be straight forward , but nothing seems to be when I try at the moment I tried to order the intermotor coil you suggested number 11310 unfortunatley this has now been discontinued So I contacted intermotor direct and there technician chap recommends Number 11410 this has a ohms resistence on primary of 2.2 Contacted Lucas as well they recommend dlb198 .9 ohms on the primary side Can I use either ? Thanks Alec | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1258 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Alec Confusing isn't it. I have an interest here as I am running a 12v coil at the moment through a points distributor. I have a Powerspark electronic ignition module waiting to go on but my current house move is getting in the way of my fitting it. I know I am hammering the points by running a non-ballasted 12v coil, but so far, after a thousand miles or so, the points are holding up. In checking out the Lucas DLB198 coil I note it is a 12v coil. The problem with running it on your car will mean you are not getting full power to the spark plugs if you run it at 9v through the ballast resister. If you bypass the resister then I would guess you may damage the electronics in your distributor. If you check out the powerspark website it says the DLB198 is a "Universal fitment for all non-ballasted ignition systems." If you check out the Flying Spares site for the SY2 they list 2 coils. The more expensive one has the following advice: "Please disconnect or by-pass the ballast if your car has one fitted; as long as your coil is receiving 12V feed from the battery these coils will provide an excellent spark." The cheaper coil is just listed as aftermarket, with no specs or advice. It does beg the question why are FS selling ballast resisters and then advising purchasers of their coils to bypass them. I could get no info on the Intermotor 11410, other than on some forums for other cars, where the assumption was it is a 12v coil. Could it be that 9v coils are simply being phased out? FS say it's ok to run a non-ballasted 12v coil on the series 2 cars. I assume they have researched this, to avoid lawsuits from owners who have blown up their expensive distributors. Sorry I can't help. I await the views of other contributors. Geoff | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1259 Registered: 5-2012 |
Of course, you could just take the plunge and fit a Pertronix electronic ignition module and a non-ballasted 12v high output coil. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 240 Registered: 6-2005 |
Geoff, It is quite OK to run a 12 volt coil with points, that's the way my car (SRH1405) works. A condenser is put there to protect the points from arcing as well as maximising the spark duration. For a car with electronic ignition if you use a 12 volt coil and do not remove the ballast resistor the coil energy will be reduced by about a third which may or may not affect operation. If you bypass the ballast resistor while using the 12 volt coil you will get normal coil energy but you will not get the extra voltage to the coil when cranking which may make the car more difficult to start if the battery is low. In either case it shouldn't damage the electronic ignition. | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Geoff I spelt your name wrong on my previous post I do apologise I also noticed the different types of ignition coils on the FS website and was also confused with the recommendation of removing the ballast resistor I did notice the Lucas coil that was recommended for electronic ignition did not say for use with or without ballast and the coil number was rather cleverly photograph out of view Both coils intermotor 11410 and Lucas dlb198 are 12 volt as I I contacted another auto parts supplier and was told the intermotor 11410 should have a primary resistance of 1 ohm not 2.2 as previously told Once again it appears you can ask the same question regarding the same product but get different answers Thankyou John Your explanation is very helpful I have tried my best to buy the correct coil for my car The advice given direct from Lucas and intermotor is a 12 volt coil with primary resistance of 1 ohm I understand this may be a open ended question with many mine fields and endless possibilities however quoting Patrick and Geoff "Generally speaking, a 9v coil for a ballasted system should have a resistance of 1-2 ohms. A 12v coil should have a resistance of 3+ ohms." Hi Geoff. yes with a contact ignition but NOT a RR breakerless system.Should be 0.9-1.1 ohms depending on temp. Does that mean you can use a 12volt coil with the Lower primary resistance of 1 ohm Now for some good new The car started up first time. I used the old 12 volt coil with a primary resistance of 2.2 ohms and removed the radio supressor So to confirm for anyone who has a similar problem I had 0 volts on positive side of coil with ignition on car would not start Problem one Only had ignition voltage on terminal connector of green wire of coil , but the voltage would short out when connecting green wire to coil This was caused by radio suppressor shorting Problem two On test no voltage to coil whilst two ferrite rods eqidistant from pick up module Should have 4 to 6 volts with radio supressor removed Fault was within the ballast resistor New ballast resistor fitted now have 4.76 volts Thank you very much for everyone's help to get my car started just need to buy a coil A big thanks Alec | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 663 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Alec, I knew you would get there in the end. before you bin the old coil can you do a small post mortem for us? I need to know if the bang you heard was the coil getting fried. Does the coil: a) have a funny smell? b) symetrical about its centreline ie no bulges anywhere)? c) look any different upon close inspection. I am not asking you to cut into it - just an external inspection. Thanks Omar | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1261 Registered: 5-2012 |
In addition to Omar's tests, does the coil feel oily where the aluminum body is crimped around the plastic end housing that holds the connectors and HT lead. I noticed this on removal of my 9v coil, when it stopped working. I have read oil filled coils are mounted vertically, as on the Rolls, to allow even cooling of the coil. Geoff | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Omar Thank you for the kind words In answer to the post mortem a} no funny smells b} no bulges c} no difference on inspection Hello Geoff Coil does not feel oily I`m of the opinion that when the mechanic held the rotar arm with a pair a pliers and turn it within the cap he sent voltage to the spark plug which ignited unspent fuel in the chamber which created the bang There was also a bright spark and large flash within the cap which,on reflection I believe shorted by ballast resistor and radio suppressor as it seems to much of a coincidence with parts failling Call him a idiot if you like as I did, but he cleared a few cobwebs ,although its been painful fixing the problem at times .I have learnt a little bit more about my car which I find interesting I did start the car up with the old coil but need to buy a new one ,reading the advice from Patrick my coil should have a resistance of 0.9 to 1.1 ohms The original coil fitted back in the day ,when the car was manufactured was a 22c12 which I believe was a 12 volt I have found this website http://www.holden.co.uk/displayProducts.asp?sg=1&pgCode=030&sgName=Electrical&pgName=Ignition&agCode=0350&agName=Ignition+Coils It would appear to me that the 12 volt ballast coils are designed for points on this webiste .There is one coil recommeded for opus ignition but this offers no information for use with a ballast resistor I can buy a 12 volt coil for use with ballast ,I can buy a coil for electronic ignition ,I cant seem to find a coil that is for electronic ignition and ballast? So if anyone one can put me straight ,I would be gratefull Do i just need a 12 volt coil with low ohms between 0.9 and 1.1ohms on the primary Thanks Alec | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1023 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Alec etc, been away from the computor, wow what a day of porsches at Beaulieu. Drove one of my 968 cabriolets and turns out the only one of that type. Never seen so many Porsches in one place. Catching up on the thread : "Do i just need a 12 volt coil with low ohms between 0.9 and 1.1ohms on the primary" Alec IMO yes.The Opus system IMO is reliable only if the parimiters spec are correct. The system only gets a bad press if folk do not do the correct test proceedure, also the testing cannot be carried out with incorrect parts fitted. Long term damage and a unrelible system will result in the words just fit a --------- system. Maybe a second hand coil of the correct type could be found at a car breakers? Still cannot find my notes on the 35dm distributor module testing. Have found my notes on the Lucas Fuel Injection system 1980.   My next car if I can be active with the controls!!!  | ||
| Alexander Hoar Experienced User Username: plumber Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hello Patrick Thanks for confirming the ohms for the coil What a lovely car Your making me jealous That's is certainly a Porsche convention looks like you had some nice weather at the show as well Alec |
