| Author | Message | ||
     Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2012 |
Does this Mickey Mouse steering oil cooler on top of the Shadow 1 radiator actually do anything? Its small size is laughable.  I can't make up my mind whether to replace it or to chuck it out (and I'm only half joking)! | ||
| richard george yeaman Prolific User Username: richyrich Post Number: 214 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Bob typical Rolls Royce, It is probably getting heated rather than cooled sitting where it is on top of a very hot radiator. Richard. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1066 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, Is it leaking from the cooler (and, yes, I use the term loosely) itself? This area often exhibits a pool of red ATF, but it's usually from the tiny hose segment either weeping copiously or having developed a leak. I just replaced that small hose segment way back when. If you're at all inclined, and at all able to identify electronic bits, would you mind taking a look at the temperature sensor that's in the area you've pictured that feeds the "Ice" light circuit? Mine is perpetually on these days and I'm trying to start "at the front" and working my way inward. If this thing is a thermistor of some sort attached to a metal plate (which is what I seem to remember) I might try replacing the thermistor first. Brian | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 165 Registered: 8-2012 |
Sorry Brian, I would like to help but this is a Shadow 1 and doesn't have an Ice light circuit, or any external temperature sensor. I can't see any electrical bits in this area. I stumbled upon this 'cooler' today after taking the radiator out. It is discoloured at one end, as though one of the hoses has been leaking, but there is no evidence of any leaking fluid. There's 2 miles of contorted tubing cluttering up the engine compartment leading to and from the steering pump, and all it does is to go to this tiny 'cooler' the size of a matchbox. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I can't see how this can be any use whatsoever, especially at low speeds when the steering is used the most. Of course, I could be wrong, it might be a vital component. It could be a heater to stop the fluid from freezing!  Does the fluid constantly flow around this circuit, or just when the steering wheel is turned? I'm sure I don't turn the steering wheel enough to boil the fluid.  | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.77 |
I have no idea at what temperature a power steering system shouldn't exceed. Given that the main rad is 90c and has a transmission cooler. Then 90c for power steering as well with say a 20c leeway. Maybe it's the other way round and the little heat exchanger is picking up heat to keep the oil warm and maybe it does both. The one in the photo maybe needs cleaning. If it's leaking a rad shop should be able to solder it up. It's rotten then I would make one from copper tube and copper sheet for fins. I think it's a U with fins. I took mine off and painted it satin black about ten years ago. There are copper pipes with a helix cooling fin wound around it which are good but not original. These can be bent with a spring. My compressor has one between the pump and receiver. 120psi. Or buy a new one. Bet their expensive. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1067 Registered: 6-2009 |
Mr. Reynolds, In your photo it looks to me like you have years of ambient dust that has coagulated on fluid that was probably spilled on one end of this cooler at one point or another. It's described as the power steering oil cooler, and that's pretty consistent with anything I've ever seen that has fins over which air flows. Since the power steering pump is constantly pumping I imagine this thing is part of a continuous circulation loop. Of course you could check this by temporarily hooking up a bit of vinyl hose in place of the cooler and seeing what you observe over the course of a few minutes when the car is sitting and no steering is occurring.  I agree, though, that given both the size and position of the thing I can't imagine that it really serves its intended function. These cars have more than their share of "solutions in search of a problem" that tend to become problems of their own. In the case of this little gem it seems the hoses that connect the input & output are the most problematic bits. If you do decide to remove it entirely, even if just as an experiment in determining whether it is essential or not, do report back. Brian | ||
| Robert Gardner Experienced User Username: bobg Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2012 |
Mr. Reynolds, I have been told that my radiator is "plugged up in spots" and needs to be replaced, I have no idea where to begin to remove it. I'm sure there is no quick answer to this question: But, Is it an extremely difficult job ? Is it something that a novice like myself could undertake in his garage ? | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.72 |
Oil flows around the system all the time. The feed pipe when the steering is not moved is open to the return pipe, inside the control valves in the rack or box. The rubber connector hoses with hose clips are available from autobox specialists. The feed hose is high pressure ( about 750 psi I think) the return is nominal pressure say less than 50 psi. This also allows easy oil change/ flush. Don't run pump dry, flush with new oil. Castrol do an oil specifically for power steering with additives that keep the seals nice. It doesn't repair leaks only helps combat weeps. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1275 Registered: 6-2006 |
hi, yes it's important , but only when the oil reaches higher temperature , and then the difference between the oil temp and ambient air temp is high and lots of cooling occurs. Most cars don't have fins on the pipes but have longer lengths instead. have a look at Bill Coburns Tee One articles, I'm sure I'm will have covered radiator replacement at some point. it's possible to do it yourself, but get a helper in. good luck. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 167 Registered: 8-2012 |
Robert: Yes it was much easier to remove the radiator than I had expected. Basically, you just undo the hoses, remove the fan, and lift the radiator out. Put the front of the car up on ramps to minimise the loss of gearbox fluid. (Yes the gearbox fluid goes through the radiator unit!) Remove the bonnet and place on the roof (this was the hardest bit). I removed the bottom and top cowling from the radiator to make access easier, but the WM doesn't say you need to do this. Remove the header tank from the top of the radiator and swing it to one side. There is no need to remove it from the car or disconnect all the connections. You will have to undo the small hose at the front. Remove the 4 nuts holding the viscous coupling and fan onto the pulley. The fan and coupling should now have enough clearance to come forward and lift out. If not - panic! Undo the top and bottom hoses. Undo the 2 pipes to the gearbox underneath the rad. Plug them. This was the scary bit, but almost no fluid came out. Remove the bolts (2 on each side) holding the radiator onto the car. Lift the radiator up and out. This is all from memory so I am sorry for anything I have inevitably forgotten. Oh yes - drain the cooling system first! And now that you have got the bonnet off, take the opportunity to do all the other little jobs that you could never get access to. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 168 Registered: 8-2012 |
"These cars have more than their share of "solutions in search of a problem" that tend to become problems of their own. In the case of this little gem it seems the hoses that connect the input & output are the most problematic bits. If you do decide to remove it entirely, even if just as an experiment in determining whether it is essential or not, do report back." You and I think alike about this issue of unnecessary complication for the sake of it. I have already removed half a ton of clutter from the engine compartment, leading to much easier maintenance and improved reliability. This 'cooler' is a prime candidate for removal, or at least for repositioning to get rid of the convoluted pipe run, but I wouldn't remove anything until I am absolutely certain that it serves no useful purpose. In this case the limited access makes experimentation difficult, so I will be replacing the cooler with a new one while I have the bonnet off. But if ever those pipes get in the way of another job - out they come. | ||
| richard george yeaman Prolific User Username: richyrich Post Number: 215 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Bob just had a look at Flying Spares on lime catalogue up to 30000 £83.38 inc vat from 30001 £496.34 inc vat plus shipping this one is a bit longer, the short rubber pipes are £26.89 each inc vat, Paul Yorke said some of them come without fins and are much longer, If it were me I would make one or clean and repair the one you have. Richard. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1277 Registered: 6-2006 |
Sorry, most other MAKES of cars don't have fins. Not most Rolls-Royces, they have fins. All cars have some method of cooling so don't consider deleting it. The size is not really laughable . . . it's large enough for it's purpose. If a larger one was needed they would have fitted a larger one. If it was not needed , they would not have fitted one. The last thing you want is your power steering fluid boiling and to lose your steering.  On the later cars they fitted longer ones, perhaps the racks heat the oil up more than the boxes, perhaps they were having problems in hotter countries? Bit confused by this recuperation with throwing things away, but each to their own I guess. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 169 Registered: 8-2012 |
Might get a second-hand one for £36 I'll see what they've got when I get there, and how much discount I can wangle. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 667 Registered: 1-2008 |
If heating the fluid was such a bad idea why would most car makers include their ATF coolers into the bottom of the engine coolant radiator? Simple answer: They wouldn't. As we are all aware; warm oils/hydraulic fluids flow easier than cold. The sooner they reach the correct temperature, and therefore fluidity, the better they do the job they're meant to do. Picking up some 'stray' heat from the engine will accomplish this so much faster than waiting for it to happen naturally. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1278 Registered: 6-2006 |
As Jan mentions, warming ATF is a nice bonus. However, Cooling ATF is imperative . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1068 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, As you mention, running lines through the radiator for the transmission is to cool the fluid, not heat it. I doubt that the coolant temperature contributes very much, at all, to warming ATF compared to what driving contributes to heating ATF. Mr. Gardner, It is relatively easy to remove the radiator from the car if, as Mr. Reynolds notes, the hood/bonnet and the grille have been removed. I removed mine "from ground level" and can report that there was also minimal ATF spillage from the cooler and very little from the lines to/from same. It's tedious and, at times, frustrating, but not difficult compared to genuinely difficult jobs. Brian | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 170 Registered: 8-2012 |
"Hi Bob just had a look at Flying Spares on lime catalogue up to 30000 £83.38 inc vat from 30001 £496.34 inc vat plus shipping this one is a bit longer, the short rubber pipes are £26.89 each inc vat"  Tadaa..... Refurbished cooler from Flying Spares, including hoses and clips. Only £25. Can't grumble at that. | ||
| richard george yeaman Prolific User Username: richyrich Post Number: 216 Registered: 4-2012 |
Bob that's handy having Flying Spares within driving distance P&P is sometimes a lot more than the item. A few Months ago I repaired a radiator on a 1970 Silver Shadow 1 as far as I remember it didn't have an ATF cooler at the bottom and neither did it have a power steering cooler fitted to the top. Richard. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.88 |
The torque converter heats oil fast even at idle it is warming the oil. Which helps warm the main rad. Then once warm the main rad is cooling the gearbox. Hydraulic stuff likes to be warm it drives out moisture. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.90 |
25 beer vouchers is very reasonable. It would cost £15 in materials and all day to make one. Plus the rubber pipes and hose clips. The clutter also irks me on cars but I am afraid one is stuck with. All one can do is keep the clutter looking good. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 171 Registered: 8-2012 |
It's not just about visual appearance. The pipe run to that tiny cooler contains 8 hose connections (yes eight!). You only need one of those connections to go and you've lost your steering. Even a slow leak over time will leave you stranded if the level is not checked frequently and the leak isn't noticed. Just positioning that cooler in a more sensible place could have eliminated at least 4 of those connections, if not all of them. I don't really think that reliability was very high on Crewe's list of priorities when they designed these cars, or added modifications. They probably expected a full-time chauffeur to be employed to maintain them. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.85 |
Bob, I understand where you are coming from, more joints equals more joints to leak. However I loathe to alter things from std because of the value of the vehicle and the oil cooler is there for a reason. The rack type of car does show from service experience that the rack is prone to failure and removing the rad may escalate the problem. If the pipe work is checked and any suspect bits renewed then it should be fine for many years. It is important that only the correct type of rubber hose is used, which is readily available from autobox guys. And not a guess it will be ok pipe with no specifications. I over hauled my pas pipe work when I replaced the autobox pipes about ten years ago. The little rad is 40 years old. So it is reliable and the Work I did on it is merely service work. When I design stuff I try to keep pipe joints to a minimum but it's not easy. The Shadow was designed not to be maintained or driven by chauffeur. It was designed for a well healed owner driver who would probably change the car in 5 years and have the car serviced by a main agent. I have looked at many service schedules and in all of them is a visual inspection "of everything else" is implied. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 316 Registered: 5-2009 |
Oil coolers in power-assisted steering systems are sometimes indicated because, due to the configuration of the system, the oil might become too hot due to lack of airflow around the parts of the steering system. Hot oil being less viscous lowers the efficiency and efficacy of the steering. I remind that there is considerable airflow over this small cooler when the Car is in motion (i.e. "wafting"). The engineering technique used to size and position this device was usually; install one somewhere which seems logical and see if it works. If it works, install one in each Car. Many 1970s USA autos had similar PAS oil coolers: Ford products come to mind as often having a cooler very much like the one Rolls-Royce used in the Shadows. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 673 Registered: 1-2008 |
Goldilocks got it right: Not too hot and not too cold is the order of business for all fluids. From ATF to a single malt! |
