| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 874 Registered: 2-2013 |
Omar, my job service provider has informed me that I may be in chance to get a high paying mine mechanics job very soon. That being the case we need to go on a mission. If it can be located I would like to look at the aspects of purchasing King Khalid's 1976 Cadillac Limo for my upcoming museum here beyond the black stump in Oz, a special order from Cadillac the best photo being on page 356 of 1979 edition of Maurice D. Hendry's Cadillac Standard of the World. A poorer photo of the car can be googled on the internet. Saudi Arabia is not a place I want to visit - something about chop chop square etc. So if I get cashed up can you whack on the appropriate middle eastern clobber and turn up at the palace in Jeddah and make enquiries. Naturally, if its not for sale or has been dirt napped I will have to create this car by hacking a 1976 75 Series Limo myself because its essential to show the Australian people that a 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood which I have is really not the biggest Caddy ever made. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2869 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vladimir, Is this the car you are referring to? "A specially redesigned 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood limousine will soon become the Long Liveried the King! official transportation of King Khalid Ibn Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia. 'Fanciest Cadillac in World 9 Built Detroit (UPI) - King Khalid Ibn Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia now owns the longest and possibly fanciest Cadillac in the world. Cost, "several times" the standard $14,000 price. The car, which is 25 feet, 2 inches long -- more than six feet longer than the longest standard Fleetwood model -- has everything but a bar. That was not included because the king, like other faithful Moslems, does not drink. The special Cadillac weighs 7,800 pounds, about 1,800 pounds more than the standard model and is available to anyone with $100,000 dollars. Nobody Knows No one knows how many miles it will get to the gallon of gasoline, but in Saudi Arabia that isn't much of a problem. The car's special padded vinyl roof, is more than 13 feet long. The tires, made specially by Uniroyal Tire Co., can support 2,500 pounds each. The windows were constructed of one-way mirrored glass. The car was built as a rolling office for the king and his chief aides by Wisco Corp. of Ferndale with advisory help of Mrs. Edward N. Cole. Her husband retired last year as president of General Motors Corp., which manufactures Cadillacs. Lot of Cars Asked if she was chosen because of her husband's former ties with GM, she said, "probably, but I've seen a lot of cars myself." Mrs. Cole refused to say how much the car cost. "It would be difficult," she said, "to place a value on the engineering, design talent and careful attention to detail that went into the development of this automobile." Wisco officials said they "stretched" the car at the request of a Washington concern."   | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 876 Registered: 2-2013 |
No Dave that is a 93 to 96 Cadillac. King Khalid's Cadillac was a 1976 but the story is right. If you google King Khadids 1976 Cadillac its the first one in images. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 877 Registered: 2-2013 |
Actually David the two cars you posted are different cars. The first is 78 to 80s and the second is 1993 to 1996. All Cadillacs after 1976 were flimsy affairs with weak rear ends and thinner sheet metal as the Americans totally lost the plot over fuel consumption and size. Some of the mid 80s to 90s Cadillacs were really ugly short affairs well below the standard of Cadillacs up to 1976. It was painful to watch. Errk! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2870 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vladimir, I went looking for details of the car from Cadillac historians/archivists given there is nothing available from the usual search engines. I remember reading some news items at the time in the specialist US car magazines about this car. I suspect the lack of details and photos arises from the secrecy that was associated with the acquisition and modification of the vehicle. Most likely experience from converting vehicles for the US Presidential limousines would have been used in the conversion of the vehicle especially the type and positioning of the armour plates. This information would be highly valued by terrorists or "nutters" for obvious reasons. Do you know if the Fleetwood passenger car and station wagons had the same wheelbase? I would have expected a wagon body would be better suited for stretching if it was available as it may [or may not] have additional strengthening of the body structure as it was the era of the spongy, floating and wallowing US prestige cars. This preference influenced the engineering of the Silver Shadow as the US market was the prime target to recover the development costs for RRMC and a "boulevarde ride" was essential. Unfortunately, a Cadillac enthusiast such as you is needed to properly identify the vehicles - I had noted the difference with the original Wisco photo especially the ornamentation on the mid and rear quarter side roof panels and my assumption was the photos were of later Cadillacs converted for use as Presidential or other limousines using the experience gained from the King Khalid conversion. I have forwarded this thread to my US mate who may be able to add to the story from his family involvement in the US car industry and car clubs. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2548 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, We'll have to disagree, again, over the date at which Cadillac lost its way. I love the 1977 through 1979 cars, which are much more refined looking than the 1974 through 1976 models. (1969 and 1970 were no great shakes, either, but they were *huge*). We are in agreement that both of the photos posted by our Mr. Gore are both examples from far later than 1976. I actually quite love my 1989 Sedan de Ville, but I will admit that it is a "large mid-size car." True full-size cars were long gone from all makers by the mid-1980s, at latest. But, back to RR, I was amazed when I obtained SRH33576 just how much smaller they were, both inside and out, than American full-size cars of the era. The Cadillacs of the late 60s through 1976 were significantly longer and roomier. I'd give my eye teeth (almost) to have a 1967 or 1968 Coupe de Ville convertible. Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 879 Registered: 2-2013 |
Dave a 1976 75 series limo built standard by Cadillac themselves is not a stretch is approximately two feet longer than a standard Cadillac Fleetwood. The station wagons such as Castilian were not stretched but converted from sedans into station wagons. King Khalids limo started life as a 1976 75 Series Fleetwood limo of which only 834 were built along with 981 Sedan limos. Normal Fleetwood's like mine totalled 24,500 whilst the cheaper but still damn fine cars the Calais were 6200 and the Deville 182,159. Fleetwood's such as mine in almost new condition have tripled in price in the last ten years and I have seen asking prices above seven times what I paid for mine which has only 77000 miles on it. So to build a copy of King Khalid's limo the 75 series limo though hard to find would be the best starting point I think. It would be jolly nifty if Wisco Corporation who built the car had the build notes. Probably a bit too old a car for any armour plating secrets to be remaining a secret today. I'll email you a photo of the Kings car to post it kindly if you can | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 882 Registered: 2-2013 |
Honestly Brian a 1989 Cadillac Sedan Deville has more in common with the Queensland cane toad and the Russian Zaz Zaporozhets than a real Cadillac like a 1968 Cadillac Deville Convertible. The front and sides of a 1989 Cadillac is pure unadulterated horrificness which shows GM fell from a very high oak tree head first into a concrete footpath. It makes even the front of a Camargue look spectacular. That a Cadillac badge was ever put on it shows how bad GM was hurting. Its defineately worse than dare I say it a Cimmaron. You really need to put a tarp over the bugger before your neighbours start to complain. Take it to the nearest breaker, then go see your bank manager and buy a 1968 Cadillac Convertible before you start having hideous nightmares in the daylight. Really Brian, I have a lawn mower that is prettier than a 1989 Cadillac DeVille. Please don't post a photo of it because its so pug ugly that I am certain the software that runs this forum will croak in horror. Vladimir | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2551 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, To each his or her own. For me, 1989 was when Cadillac jettisoned the horror that was (the very Camargue-like) "the box" of the 80s period and started having the long, sensuous lines again. The rear end is a clear homage to the 1960s cars. The elegance of line had made a roaring comeback, even if scaled down. 1977-1979 and 1989-1993 were my two favorite periods post-1960s and pre-current era, which is absolutely fabulous (though far more sporting in nature, not unlike the Ghost/Wraith/Dawn of RR's current line - which I personally find more "generic" than both Cadillac and Lincoln as far as exterior styling goes). It is actually funny to me how differently various people react to the same thing. I just got my latest compliment on the Cadillac on Tuesday when filling up at the petrol station. She gets a lot of attention these days, almost invariably positive. Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 883 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes Brian it is funny how differently various people react to the same thing. That you are getting compliments on your 1989 Cadillac confirms media reports here that the USA is having a major binge on opiates like oxycotin: why else would they have voted Trump in....Perhaps its his wife they were voting for as I wouldn't mind going horizontal with her if she asked me nicely. Yes just shows a billion dollars in assets or whatnot is the true aphrodisiac. I had a close friend years ago who exclaimed that he thought all E-Type Jaguars were ugly and he would rather have yuk spew vomit chuck: a Datsun 240Z. If I did not know better I would swear he had just slipped over in the bathroom and hit his head. But Brian, if you go for a Cadillac Convertible, the 1968 which has a 472 engine is much better than a 1967 with a 429 according to my past reads on Cadillac engines. In any case Brian get rid of the 1989 Cadillac Sedan Deville because its that horrid, that the USA could be asked to leave the United Nations, then again if you parked it on the Mexican/USA border there would be no need for a wall..... | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1479 Registered: 4-2009 |
I have a love for Cadillacs. I have a 57 coupe 76 convertible a 59 sedan and a 5995. The 5995 is a very very special car that is not yet ready. I bought a 59 cadillac and a 95 cadillac and made one car out of the two. The end result is a 5995. looks like a 59 but drives like a 95. Cant wait to put it on the road. It will be pink when it is ready. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 884 Registered: 2-2013 |
Jetsetters, King Khalid's 1976 Cadillac Limo specially built for him by Cadillac and Wisco Corporation and a must have for me to sneak into dusty one horse country towns unnoticed.Sorry about the photo quality but its the only photo of it on the net I can find.  | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1484 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vlad, I imagine there will be a lot of people who would actually want this car. Also it is probably safe inside an air conditioned garage. Perhaps we need to look for an alternative car for you. Omar | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 885 Registered: 2-2013 |
Right, that does it Omar. If you can produce a 5995, I can produce a King Khalid's Limo perhaps without the bulletproof shields. Now the trick is I get you here, we gear up in the middle eastern clobber and we drive into outback Queensland towns, you play the part of chauffeur and I the part of the Sheik Uba Duba Camargueski and as we walk into the pub my black breifcase falls open and rolls of Indonesian Rupiah covered with $50 OZ bills fall over the floor. If that does not get us bloody laid within 24 hours nothing will. Then we hideously leave town at high speed, tyres smoking and hit the next town where I am the chauffeur and you are the Dubian trillionaire looking for a good business deal....and so on. Something always told me you were destined to be a bad bad influence on me.... | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1486 Registered: 4-2009 |
right fellas.............. stuff the Birmingham reunion I am off to OZ to live the high life with Vlad and the delightful Liz..... | ||
| Kelly Opfar Prolific User Username: kelly_opfar Post Number: 197 Registered: 7-2004 |
When is Vladimir getting his own TV show? I'd watch that.  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 889 Registered: 2-2013 |
Kelly I am a bloody TV show playing right here right now! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1491 Registered: 4-2009 |
   The 5995 project so far | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2554 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, Is that an LT1 engine in there? It looks like it was lifted from my Roadmaster (or maybe a Vette). I hope we see more of this car when the project is complete. I love this sort of thing, as both the 59 and 95 would both have passed into the great rust pile in the sky otherwise. Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1496 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian, The whole running gear including chassis, engine transmission suspension brakes steering electrics etc all came from the donor 1995 Cadillac Fleetwood. It is all standard apart form the air conditioning. I have fixed an evaporator unit form a Toyota Hiace bus to give it adequate cooling. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1497 Registered: 4-2009 |
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| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2555 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, I have no direct experience with the 1995 Cadillac, but just looking at the final photo that you posted tells me that this is the same engine that's in my 1996 Roadmaster Estate Wagon. The LT1 was "retuned" and used in a number of GM full-sized cars and is an absolutely wonderful engine. The OptiSpark (I think that's what they call it) distributor is a grand PITA to replace if it should ever come to that, but the one in the Roadmaster is still ticking along at around 203K miles and 22.5 years as of yesterday. Brian, who feels no loss at there being one less '95 Fleetwood around. That was the era of "bloated, ugly box." | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1499 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian, I put a lot of effort in trying to find the best donor vehicle for the project and indeed took a gamble on this $400 donor car. Trouble is the donor car actually cost me $2500 by the time I paid all the taxes and shipping. I still think that I will have one hell of a car when its all done. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2556 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, I can guarantee you that you'll have a lot more get up and go than you would have with the original engine. People have no idea just how lively this engine is and presume "large and lumbering" when the Roadmaster is anything but (within its class, of course). Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 894 Registered: 2-2013 |
For some demented reason Omar and Brian I am attracted to the 1996 Fleetwood 4 door limos especially in black. However,shipping one to Australia is a right headache until 2026 when they are 30 years old because of the nutbag laws here to protect the car manufacturing industry which is now nonexistent. Now the excuse is the government needs to protect the large importers of Asian crap. However, the real reason is the present lot of politicians are too busy feeding furiously with their swine snouts in the revenue trough before they all get sent to the Abattoir in the next election. The only way to get a 1996 limo into the country is to live overseas for a year and use and have registered the car in your name. I would rather eat broken beer bottle glass than live in Trumps USA for a month let alone a whole bloody year. But tell me chaps are the 1993 to 1996 RWD Cadillacs solid cars or are they built like Asian junk as the certainly do not look as solid as the Cadillacs from the 1960s up to 1976 | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2558 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir wrote, in part: I would rather eat broken beer bottle glass than live in Trumps USA for a month let alone a whole bloody year. Something on which we can unquestionably agree upon, but which I have no choice about (from any reasonably practical perspective). I don't think that *anything* (other than RR/Bentley, even through the 1980s & at least part of the 1990s) comes close to the "tank on wheels" build quality of 1960s & early to mid-1970s American luxury cars. Sadly, the fit and finish had started going badly downhill after 1973. I would be willing to venture the guess, based on my own 1989 DeVille, that the Cadillacs of the mid-1990s are quite solidly built if one uses the general build quality of automobiles of the era as a whole as a comparison. I was actually shocked at just how solid my car felt for its era. My grandfather owned several Cadillacs over the 1960s, the last of which (a Calais) he had until somewhere around 1972/3, so I had some sense for those, and a next door neighbor owned a 1972 Sedan de Ville, which was simply immense and truly "a living room on wheels." | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1884 Registered: 4-2016 |
Anyone who loves Seinfeld will know this is the model Cadillac Jerry bought his dad while they were in their retirement home in Florida. Boy did it cause some drama. A gem of an episode if anyone hasn’t seen it, check it out. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2559 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, It is, indeed, a gem of an episode. Seinfeld, The Cadillac Parts 1 & 2 is available for viewing on YouTube (via purchase for $1.99 US). Brian | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1886 Registered: 4-2016 |
Anything with Jerry and his parents was a drama.  | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 780 Registered: 4-2015 |
Yes. Interesting times in the USA they are. For the most part our escorts are but half as attractive as those googled in St Petersburg and yet command the same "service fee". ...and a businessman, a private citizen, can have sex with a boobalicious pornography actress (probably for $1000-$1500, the going rate for escorts capitalizing on their pornographic notoriety) and then ten years later (TEN YEARS LATER) be blackmailed to the tune of $130,000 when he is running for public office, and then subsequently be sued by the virtuous lass for defamation of character (DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER!!) over a comment posted on social media. Only in the US of A! . | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 895 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes Christian, regardless of what I think of Trump (demagog) I really don't think what he does with his pecker is anybody else's business apart from the person he is porking. America is presently in some type of medieval moral witchhunt.It really does seem that if you are a high profile person especially a rich one you would safer going horizontal with a balaclava on your head! | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 767 Registered: 11-2015 |
Omar, The 5995 concept is great. Were you able to keep the 95 driveshaft? The 59 is the ultimate expression of American late 50's car styling and will be a desirable chassis forever. The 95 drive is unfortunately on another short list. The worst expression of the Chevrolet small block 8 platform. It will run as smoothly and reliably as another unit until it doesn't. When it doesn't it is a PITA. For my 6388 I'm going a different route. I even had one of those engines plus a 4l60e or whatever computerized transmission sat behind it that I didn't use. What did I choose? A big block from the 80's motor home of course. 7.5 liters, no catalytic converters, free, vacuum controlled th475, torque biased engine, GM HID ignition, two part driveshaft with companion flange gearbox side, mechanical fuel pump, and a flex fan. We'll have to race some time to settle once and for all which 50 year old frankenstined luxury car is best. Maybe I can start a Kick starter campaign. . | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1501 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Ross, Love the 6388 concept man..... the drive shaft and the chassis were both stretched. The chassis by 5 inches and the drive shaft a corresponding 4 inches. Your 63 will rip the ass out of my 59 on the track but we will never race them anyway - unless a holographic race can be engineered. Here is a great concept for someone to get rich quick..... organise holographic races accross the world!!! | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 897 Registered: 2-2013 |
And as time progressed the weird Auto-Frankenstein experiments of Omar and Ross became more bizarre until they were both led away on a chain. Omar had crossed a frisky camel with a 2017 Cadillac CTV and Ross had crossed a Allande Convertible with 500 squirrels. Both of them were dragged before the design bureau of Cadillac and slapped around the chops for many hours with cold fish before being struck from the Cadillac Book of Life for Blasphemous Mutterings and Demented Modifications.... | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1503 Registered: 4-2009 |
hahahahahaha The design bureau at Cadillac is now totally disappointing. They went form making amazing cars that were the pride of America to sharp edged piles of junk. This has been the case for well over a decade now. Rubbish!!! absolute Rubbish designs. Look at all the Cadillacs of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s....... all of them (well almost all) were iconic. Now they are a disgrace. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 899 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes Omar I agree with you 100%. The only compensation is their top model is a manual 6 speed that will do 200 mph. Sadly, it looks like a very angry Australian insect. Sadly, the Americans have lost their way which explains their present state of craziness ie Trump and hideous talk of a cosy up coming deal with the fat boy of Pyongyang and a wall to keep Mexicans out. Its bizarre but hilarious. Fortunately Omar for us we have both lived at a time when the USA did produce cars worth treasuring so we are just going to have to be content with that. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 770 Registered: 11-2015 |
Omar, I wouldn't bet a winner for that race. Pretty even match I would think. Also, it's the internet so we could just make unsubstantiated claims about our race times and whoever had the bigger lie would claim victory. It's the post truth era you know. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2562 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar & Vladimir, You and I, and the car-buying public, will have to disagree about the merits of the Cadillac "Art and Science" design idiom. I don't think Cadillac has produced cars this beautiful since the 1960s. As an article in AutoWeek said, "More than any model name changes or HQ moves, Cadillac’s so-called Art and Science design philosophy -- which saw the geriatric bloat of its 1990s lineup replaced by clean, sharp corners and creases -- is responsible for the luxury carmaker’s ongoing resurgence." Vladimir, with regard to your assertion, "America is presently in some type of medieval moral witchhunt," with regard to Trump and Stormy Daniels, you simply have not noticed this is just the latest in the long run of American Puritanism. In my opinion, with regard to sex (and sex scandals), no one ever said it better than Marlene Dietrich, "In America sex is an obsession, in other parts of the world it is a fact." That being said, it's not the sex part that's the big deal, anyway, but that Trump will lie, lie, and lie again and this is just one part of it. This last weekend's cold open on Saturday Night Live covered it all quite well, both the perverse humor in the whole situation as well as why it's so concerning. With regard to cars, and other products, the tendency for the sentiment, "They used to make 'em better," recurs with every generation. In regard to fit, finish, and overall quality, having lived through the late 1970s through the mid-to-late 1980s, I can say with certainty that what's coming out of Detroit today is of far, far higher quality in every sense of the word than what was then. Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 784 Registered: 4-2015 |
A prostitute accepts money for sex and the exchange is consummated in private between consenting parties. A porn actress accepts money for sex and then documents the exchange to be saved for posterity and available to anyone willing to pay the download fee. This current event has been pursued to embarrass the current President and which I am sure it has, but to then fault him for obfuscating seems a bit disingenuous to me. Entering the country illegally does not create citizenship rights any more than breaking and entering a domicile makes the perpetrator a member of the family. I had though it obvious that "the wall" is not to deny entry to Mexicans per se but rather to those parties who either cannot, or choose not to, proceed through the established lawful channels to become immigrants and instead decide to sneak through an otherwise to varying degrees porous border by any means necessary and whose first footstep north of that border constitutes an illegal act on which they base their right to remain. . | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 903 Registered: 2-2013 |
Brian really and truly the 2018 Cadillac CTS-V is a truly ugly piece of work and a thorough eyesore to behold. The cars accelation figures and top end speed are of a supercar status. It really looks like a Japanese car compared to the Corvette and it really is a cross between a pug dog and a deranged insect. The designer should be shot as soon as possible before he creates something uglier if that is possible. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2565 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, We shall simply have to agree to disagree. Chacun à son goût. Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 905 Registered: 2-2013 |
Sadly Brian you are correct! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1513 Registered: 4-2009 |
Modern Cadillacs are built well and perform well. But Goodness me.... the designers were asleep at the wheel when they came up with the current models... and indeed all the cars that they have made for the last 15 years. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1904 Registered: 4-2016 |
Gents, I'm sorry to say I have a "feeling" that due to the rear wheel architecture of the CTS range, and the lack of rear wheel drive experience at GM America, that the Holden boys in Victoria had a big hand in this development. However I don't know if it was just driveline or if they aided in the exterior design as well. The new 2018 certainly does have super car capabilities. I don't mind the 2018 model.  2004 not so crazy about  For me, If we are now talking about over baked or over done car design. This has to be right up there as one of the worst.  | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2567 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, The latest generation of the Art & Science design idiom has definitely borrowed very, very heavily from the Ciel concept from several years ago without carrying over a few of the excesses of the front end that were unattractive. I only wish the rear end of the Ciel, which is a clear homage to the 1967-1970 Eldorado, which was a design triumph and is a clear progenitor for the current design idiom, had been used somewhere as well, but alas. . . By the way, the production version of that Lexus (at least in the US, anyway) had the excesses of that front end trimmed considerably, and the result is very attractive compared to the one in that photo. The grille no longer "eats" the entire rest of the car (not just the front end) visually, yet the hourglass is maintained. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2887 Registered: 4-2003 |
I am certain many of us have views on ugly car designs that have "graced" the roads since the beginning of the 20th Century however, to quote a well-worn cliche "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". However, one of the benefits was you could easily recognise cars from a distance due to differences in styling. Unfortunately, this is no longer possible as designs are now dictated by wind tunnel performance to minimise fuel consumption instead of stylists' talent and skill. The only area where stylists can work with few constraints is frontal design and the last image in Patrick's post above is a good example of a stylist trying to differentiate "their" car from competing cars in the marketplace. Unfortunately IMHO, this usually results in ugly rather than beautiful expressions of individuality such has occurred above  . | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1906 Registered: 4-2016 |
My son did a lot of reading into car design. It seems the space race gave us some of the most beautiful, and some of the most "out there" cars ever, but of course each was unique and as David correctly states, they were recognisable even on the horizon. These designs of the space race, the exciting future and technology all died with the end of the space race or even the day the last Apollo (17 during December 1972) mission was recovered from the water. Some of the cars, truck & buses & even appliances from the late 50's (Sputnik) through the 60's were full of imagination and excitement. Everything went bland after this time of fantastic design. One of my favourites of course was this.  The Parade of Progress was the name given to the fleet of Future Liners showcasing new & upcoming technology to an excited public. If this didn't clearly state space race, technology & imagination that those terms brought, I don't know what did.  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 907 Registered: 2-2013 |
Errk Patrick, that is a first for me as I have like you had a lot to do with buses but never have seen a bus with dual wheels up the front!!! And look how hideously high and far away the steering wheel is from the front wheels. The quad lights show the designer was definitely a closet Tatra admirer and was possibly on Senator McCathys Reds Under Beds hit list. I would leave the bus and the car but snatch the lady before Omar could blink. Women in those days dressed most elegantly-now with piercings,tattoos and clothing that small only just covering breast nipples and genitailia they are as attractive as a Yaccamunda Feral Goat! | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 782 Registered: 11-2015 |
Pretty much have to agree with everyone on this one. Modern wind tunnel designed 86 Ford Taurus' ( everything designed in a wind tunnel is an 86 ford Taurus) are insipid trash. Take the case of the Buick Riviera, in 72 the car was worse in every way, unsafe, gas guzzeling, poor handling, unreliable , poorly fit, but I would like to own one because it was boldly styled by Bill Mitchell at GM.  Now take the case of the 86 ford Taurus. In the following guise as a 99 Buick riviera. It's grey, and a car, and kind of roundy.  I wonder which one will get pulled from a bone yard in 50 and restored? ( the answer BTW is the '72) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 909 Registered: 2-2013 |
Ross you are too cruel but totally spot on the money! Even a flea bitten ferett is more attractive than that Ford! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2570 Registered: 6-2009 |
Just for the record, the '99 Riviera presents quite differently based upon color and in certain ones looks quite like a bullet. It's extremely muscular looking in person and I've always loved the "pinched" rear end design. The supercharged model went like hell on wheels. See: Google Image Search on 1999 Buick Riviera to see the difference between dark and light colors. As far as I'm concerned they were the ultimate in Q-ship car. Sleek, muscular, but relatively unassuming and not prone to capture the attention of the local constabulary. Brian, who would still take a 1965 Riviera any day! | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 914 Registered: 2-2013 |
Brian now I will inform you of something incredibly sick. I knew of a White 1965 Rhd Buick Riviera since it was new. It was in totally immaculate condition all the time I knew it and I personally witnessed a total reconditioning of its engine. It was owned buy a theatre owner and then by a female doctor in Queensland who was definately one of Queensland's elite. Sadly, as time progressed around 1982 when I was giving myself a self imposed frontal lobodomy by studying law at the most conservative law school in the most conservative university campus in Australia it became available for....wait for it ...$4,000AUD and now its value in that condition in USA would be $40,000USD. That's why Brian I must come to South Carolina immediately and croak my ex with a silenced Marakov pistol because without her that 1965 Riviera would be in my collection. She has to die Brian painfully because the 1965 Buick Riviera was really a blast and could crank 130mph Standard. I hate you Americans for the beauty you once created but I like you a lot now because you are turning out crap like the Japanese! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1517 Registered: 4-2009 |
The Americans have made amazing cars in their history. Currently, Chevrolet are making very attractive Camaros and Corvettes. Also Jeep are making that iconic Wrangler which has to be up there with the likes of the Land Rover Defender. Not sure i like the rest of the cars though. And of course they have also made our well loved Brian. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1518 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vladimir, given your love for limos and Cadillacs - my favourite of all Cadillacs has to be the 1959 model year. In this one year Cadillac made the most iconic of all their models ever. The rarest of them being the station wagons but also rare is the limo version. Here is one going for peanuts........ https://www.ebay.com/itm/263697960289?ul_noapp=true Buy it Vlad....... | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 784 Registered: 11-2015 |
Brian, The rounded egg look itself is not a problem. For instance the E type Jaguars were not a completely failed attempt at pulling it off. I could imagine someone finding a Jag in a barn 20 years from now and lovingly fixing it up. The 86 Ford Taurus in whatever form it takes, hmmm maybe not so much. The 65 Riv vs the 71 Riv, now that is a tough debate. But neither were the bastard spawn of fuel economy regulations, bean counters and a wind tunnel. Vlad, You can still hate us for designing beautiful cars.     Still got it. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 785 Registered: 11-2015 |
Omar, Here's some pro tips on Cadillac 390 engine.  Drain the petrol from the oil filter.  And strain the acorns out of the coolant  Before running the engine. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1520 Registered: 4-2009 |
oh wow....... that's dreadful.......... Lucky I have switched to a modern engine on the 5995. However I still have the old engines on my other 59 and the 57. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1521 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vlad, why dont you bid on this gem?...... https://www.copart.com/lot/29650138?resultIndex=269&totalRecords=451&backTo=%2FlotSearchResults%2F%3FfromSavedSearch%3Dtrue&from=%2Fsavedsearch&query=*&displayStr=Search%20Results&viewedLot=29650138&fromSearch=true only $200 so far..... well worth an easy restoration | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2572 Registered: 6-2009 |
Well, even I despised the first generation Ford Taurus, which was ungainly from almost every angle as was its Mercury sibling, the Sable. I did like the look of the second generation Taurus introduced in 1996. It had a very shark-like presence, particularly the front. The market, however, did not and I was shocked that that basic guise was allowed to continue for 4 years. What was really perverse, in my opinion, is that the redesign for the 2000 model year was much more bland and generic but sales went up, significantly, after its arrival. There really is a major demographic that just wants to "blend in" and be "just like everyone else." I'm not a part of it. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2573 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, If Vladimir won't buy that '59 Fleetwood Limo I fully expect that you will rescue it!! You definitely have "the restoration bug" and even if you were to do a 5995 and rehabilitate the body and interior only, you'd be saving a very rare gem. You also happen to have the garage space for it, if your prior photos of some of your projects in progress are taken in a garage owned by you. I can't imagine that there are many private homes that have a garage that would accommodate that car! Brian | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 786 Registered: 11-2015 |
Omar, Lump out,  Wonder if there's enough room?  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 915 Registered: 2-2013 |
Not content with what the General created Shocking Shams and his cohort Killer Kowalski continued their evil vandalization of Classic Cadillacs tearing the guts out of these grand cars with wild abandon with each villain encouraging the other to wilder and wilder bizarre and twisted modifications......forsooth and seething Comrade Lenin had predicted the rise but not the fall of their counter revolutionary terror..... | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1529 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Vladidimir, You know that Ross and I are only modifying our cars in order to make them practical daily drivers...... and that surely is a good thing. We can then drive these cars insetad of leaving them stood on a hard standing awaiting a water pump or whatever fails next.... My real 59 has thrown 2 water pumps already. Each time the car had to be off the road for a few months while i get all the damage put right. My Modifications have taken an ugly turn today so please cover your eyes for the next paragraph Vlad. I figured out that the measly Toyota Hi Ace evaporator unit will not be adequate for the 5995 so I bought another one that I will now install in the boot/trunk. This will then allow me to use the car even in the height of summer on our roads. This will be one of very few classic cars in every day use in my country if not the only one. Dear Ross, Your project is moving along nicely. looking forward to seeing the 80s engine in that hole. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2577 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, Dual zone air conditioning in a 1959 Cadillac!! I hope you're installing thermostatic control, too. Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 808 Registered: 5-2009 |
Brian is correct, in that the Buick Roadmaster and Cadillac Fleetwood were practically identical under the skin, and both claim the last version of the Chevrolet Caprice in the USA as their origin, including the small-block LT-1 350 cubic inch V-8 engine. It was GM USA's last attempt at marketing a larger, rear-wheel-drive car. They sold a lot of them to the older set mostly and one hardly sees an example on the road any more. All the cars look so similar that it hardly makes any difference which one we drive. The last version of the Buick Rivera was a leader in GM's strengthening their structures for torsional rigidity, a la Mercedes E-Class of that era which was the benchmark. The Ford Fusion (company car) I have now is quite rigid and it feels like a quality car on the highway. I really like that at least. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 808 Registered: 11-2015 |
Omar, Purchasing a donor sedan is way easier than a free donor RV.  Can you spot the RR. Hiding in the carnage? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 938 Registered: 2-2013 |
Ross, honestly Nukes and RVs just don't miss, but with 3 tons of Sikaflex and some elbow grease you could put this RV back together. Its a beautiful example of just how flimsy some RVs are made. No I just cannot spot the RR in the photo. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 810 Registered: 11-2015 |
Vlad, Flimsy, you must not have seen the SECOND 15mm x 40mm strut. Also, https://youtu.be/Vaddl2QblPI | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1549 Registered: 4-2009 |
Donor RV??? there is a story there that needs to be told Ross...... | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 940 Registered: 2-2013 |
Ah yes Ross -- Caravans. Down under they are very popular, in fact in the 1960s you could basically put your caravan anywhere but now this country, especially on the coast is littered with "NO CAMPING" signs and councils employ lots of want to be coppers to come and tap on your door at any hour to threaten you with big fines if you don't move. People in their 60s who have paid lots of money in taxes all their life are herded like cattle into "Caravan Parks" and the price to camp there is not cheap. Eventually, I will buy a black balaclava and have a few thousand "YES" stickers printed up in the Phillipines or Thailand and I will proceed to these evil signs to convert them from "NO CAMPING" signs to "YES CAMPING" signs. The hideous thing about this is you can be a junky asleep on the streets of Kings Cross Sydney with a needle hanging out your arm and the police with just step over you and keep going, but save up and buy a caravan and park at a peaceful idealic spot in a "No Camping" area and bingo, the wanna be cops turn up and if you tell them to bugger off, they call the real cops to move you along. Australia - a free country ? Not bloody likely mate! | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 810 Registered: 5-2009 |
It’s getting the same everywhere: people are tyrants at heart, they can’t help it. Everyone thinks they should be in control. Ultimately they will kill you for your own good... |
