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KWOK K CHAN
Yet to post message
Username: kkc27

Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, 26 August, 2004 - 18:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Folks,

We have two old bumps. One is 1990 420SEL with 502000 Kms on the clocks. Engine/Au TX./Steering/Hydraulic Suspension all had been rebuilt/Repaired. It drives so smooth and so well like a new car. But the dealer said it is only worth 10K. No way I will part with it.

My 2nd car is a RR (ie Range Rover) 1996 HSE 4.6 with 170,000Km on the clock. I use it for offroad.

Don't misunderstand. We are no way to be called RICH or Wealthly. We are just well off and we don't smoke & hardly drink ! (ie alchol)

By next year, I will finish my 4-yr hire purchase on my RR HSE. I am looking for another 4 year project, my dream car Rolls Royce. I am looking for a Silver Spirit or a Silver Spur. Have read through a few articles saying

(1) Don't touch those early model from 1980 - 1989
(2) The Best deal is Spirit II or Spur II because they are getting cheaper each year, and with all those notorious problems like overheat sorted out. They are NOT fully computerisied, so to some extend, I can do some repair works myself though I am not really a handy man type.
(3) My understanding is that Spirit is the same as Spur, except Spur is 10-in longer ?? Am I right ?
(4) Spirit III & SPur III are nicer cars, but price is out of touch for me and they are expensive to maintain because of computer diagnosis...etc

If you folks are kind enough to shed some lights.

Regards




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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.24
Posted on Friday, 27 August, 2004 - 09:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Mr. Chan. Thank you for your post. I would not sell the Benz either, given its current market "worth" AND (more importantly) the liklihood that it will probably do another 500,000kms. without any great drama. Re you question about R-R, I am an enthusiast and amatuer mechanic only, and rather that restrict myself to the narrow confines of ONE make of car (knowing exactly where each and every nut bolt, fits/goes etc) I have owned, repaired (or been involved with) a BROAD spectrum of cars over 40 years. In recent years that has tended to be more with Rolls-Royce and Bentley etc.Your observations about 80 to 89 cars are basically correct and without boring you with a detailed list of each and every "pro" or "con" etc., I would like to tell you what seems to be the GENERAL view of informed observers and PROFFESIONAL mechanics who work on these cars DAILY in the course of their prime occupational activities. In 1990, most of the previous "problems" seemed to be been fixed, BUT the downside was the addition of more electronics. That is both good and bad, for as the cars age, those electronics will be VERY expensive to service IF they can be, with REPLACEMENT probably being the only available option. That will presume that the part WILL be available. I suspect it will be, but AT A COST. A case was listed recently whereby a R-R/B speedo transducer was approx. 325 pounds stg. whereas (by comparison) a similar part for a Range Rover was only 45 pounds . Do you still want to part with the Range Rover?. I have one and like it very much, being reminded that they have been described as "the Rolls-Royce of four wheel drives". The pre 90 R-R cars had electronics too, but the post ones had more, which increases the prospect of additional cost/s due to malfunction/wear and tear etc., later on. I think it might have been Henry Ford who said, many years ago, words to the effect that "if it isnt there it cant break". That might appear simplistic but it remains a reflection of reality. I personally, would be looking for a fuel injected car from 1987 to 89, but others may have a different view. Avoid Turbos (the Bentley version etc., as MANY professional mechanics (who work on them daily) will tell you that, OVERALL they are not worth the trouble, not to mention the EXPENSE. Give them a miss unless you are into badges and labels etc. Incidentally, where are you located? . Need to know, so that some comment might be due in relation to the market currently available to you. Good Luck.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 282
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 27 August, 2004 - 10:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just a small piece of advice regarding thorough checking of the past history of any car you may be interested in - I would be very wary of any cars that have spent time in Hong Kong and the UK for reasons given elsewhere in this forum - use the search facility using "Hong Kong" as the key words for detailed information - these cars are cheap and often appear cosmetically perfect but have hidden problems that you need to be aware of.

With regard to which car you should buy - my advice is to drive and spend some time with each type of car that appeals to you and then make a decision on which one best suits your driving and appearance preferences - do not buy a car as an "investment" as the used car ads are full of car advertisements saying more money has been spent on the car than its selling price. Be patient and you will find the car that is meant for you.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 283
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 27 August, 2004 - 10:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Further to the above, have extracted the most relevant information from the archives and reproduced it below:

James,

Driving/Climatic conditions in HK significantly affect vehicle life, trips are short so cars do not warm up properly and wear rates increase. Chauffeur-driven cars are often left idling for long periods of time with air-conditioning left on for driver's comfort whilst waiting for clients so engine hours of operation are much greater than car mileage indicates. Rain, heat and humidity means extensive rust of body sections is prevalent. Maintenance services in HK are reportedly not as good as other countries.

Many "opportunists" have seen the low prices of used R-R cars in HK due to these problems and imported cars then realised what they were facing in repair bills and many have ended up at auctions hoping to catch an unsuspecting buyer. The best Shadow purchase is from a R-R/B Club member where the history of the car is known and maintenance is more likely have to been done in accordance with factory recommendations. I would expect a good Shadow I to cost around $30,000 and a good Shadow II around $40,000. Corniches will cost much more depending on whether they are convertibles/hardtops. In both cases, a thorough inspection by a recognised R-R Shadow specialist is good insurance before purchase and the cost of this inspection will be covered many times over by subsequent savings in repair costs. Our previous Shadow Registrar had a favourite saying "every extra dollar you pay to purchase the car will save you at least two dollars in repair costs". This does not apply if you are a competent do-it-yourself home mechanic who can do most of the labour and only pay for parts and occasional professional assistance when necessary.

James,

RHD R-R/B cars are regularly imported from the UK, the Middle East and Hong Kong and all will have problems to varying degrees. The UK cars with corrosion and general lack of preventative maintenance, the Middle-east cars will have sun-damaged paintwork, woodwork and upholstery as well as maintenance neglect and the HK cars have all the previous problems as well as mechanical components that show far greater wear than the car's mileage suggests [see other post for reasons]. It is better to purchase an Australian-delivered car [or an import that has been in the country for a long time] from a Club member for your first car then you can decide to look at imports once you know more about the cars and can make an informed purchase decision.
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KWOK K CHAN
New User
Username: kkc27

Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, 27 August, 2004 - 19:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear David,

Thank you very much for your Info. I am from Melbourne.

I have no intention to sell my RR 4WD either. I always keep them in top notch condition. Driving them is my pleasure and hobby. BTW, A 45 Pounds Speedo Tranducer is enough to knock me off the chair. I shall look for a re-conditioned one from wrecker.

When you say 87 ~ 89, you must refer to 20,000 series ? I believe it has not got the automatic ride, but it makes sense regarding maintenance, less electronic and not as complicated. Probably relatively it is cheaper as well.

Thank you again regarding the Info. of HK/UK & ME RollsRoyce. I shall avoid them though I moigarted from HK many years ago.

There is a saying in HK reagrding RR. Good luck if you own one, bad luck if you drive one ( Chauffeur !)

Thank you again Dave ! Please call me Kwok or KK

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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.22
Posted on Saturday, 28 August, 2004 - 19:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

KK. Now that you have confirmed your location in Melbourne, I invite you to contact me PRIOR to buying ANY car from ANY organization/person, i.e (commercial or private) so THAT I may introduce you to recognized, INDEPENDENT (they DONT sell cars!) professional "R-R" specialist mechanics in Melbourne and also, in the other capitol cities, should you be attracted to a car in another state. Combined DEDICATED R-R PRACTICAL "day to day" experience exceeds 100 (ONE HUNDRED) YEARS!. For a modest fee, typically $150-200, they will provide an INDEPENDENT, UNBIASED pre purchase assessment of your selected vehicle. Some sellers have flatly refused to allow "their" cars to be inspected by persons whom I routinely engage (on behalf of buyers)to perform pre purchase checks and will leave it to you infer as you may. I have been involved and have actively assisted legal counsel, in regard to litigation (ALL cases WON!!) whereby R-R cars had been absolutely and totally MISREPRESENTED and, as if THAT isnt enough, OVERPRICED as well. Please DO call me PRIOR to committing (or deciding) to buy ANY R-R, as you will receive a BONUS; ie my advisory service and assistance is FREE. You see, I actually ENJOY this type of work. My e mail is john.dares@bigpond or tel; 9 589 1516; please leave a message if I am out. Thank you and regards. PS; I am currently assisting one of my "mainstream" ie day-to-day clients (Industrial manufacturer) in Taiwan ( owns a 1964 S3 "Bentley" LWB;Rare!) to buy a 1991 Mulsanne in Amsterdam, as he wants to have that on location in Europe to serve both business and holiday activities.
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Pat Lockyer.
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.131.116.14
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 07:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

KK Go for Davids advice.
Do not get in Touch with Dare i say that he is not an engineer or anything of the sort.
He will bombard you with the most professional words and send your head spinning.
He has nothing else to do,it must realy be a sad life for him.
Will any one ever put up with him i doubt it!!!!!!
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John Dare
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.138.194.205
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 10:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear KK, Further to our private e mail/s, I look forward to possibly meeting you at my first (recently joined) forthcoming Range Rover club meeting. I DO hope that I wont have to meet yet ANOTHER "world authority"/self appointed "expert" (on Range Rovers this time!). I might bring along some copies of court transcripts relating to cases where people have purchased R-R/B cars (without PRIOR INDEPENDENT inspection) being cars subsequently found to have been totally misrepresented. AND of course the best part will be the opportunity to talk about other makes/models of cars lest we become too obsessive by concerning ourselves as to where EVERY single nut and bolt "fits" in our cars, varied as they may be.
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Dr. Pat Lockyer.
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.131.164.219
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 16:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well his professional words are makeing more of an ass of him,very sad for a talented brain in his field of practice.
It is sad to have to make up postings as he does making out he is somone else.
Points to no home life.
Sad Sad Sad very very Sad!!!
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James R Aitken
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 203.221.176.66
Posted on Friday, 03 September, 2004 - 08:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

KK, I don't know if this thread is still "alive" or not or how things got so out-of-hand... but anyhow, I too am grappling with the same issue of which model. My situation is further complecated by the issue of do I buy a "good" one or one that needs some work. I am planning to buy an RR sometime in the next year or two and hence have been monitoring this forum and gleaning what I can from it. It is a good source.

All I can say is take your time, do plenty of research, talk to as many people as you can (you will get both good and bad advice) buy a few books and most importantly, pay to have a professional RR specialist do an inspection before you buy.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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John Dickinson
Experienced User
Username: au2018

Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, 04 September, 2004 - 08:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

James, then let’s keep this thread alive. How’ve you been? I hadn’t seen any recent comments on this forum and wondered whether you may be spending your time tinkering in the garage with a recent acquisition? Apparently not.

KK, as a chap being in the same position as James and yourself (still looking) I can only echo his above comments (research, discussion, pre-purchase inspection etc). On a daily basis I’m castigated for the pile of books, copies of London & Derby and Praeclarum, Post-It notes and calculator that keep finding their way to the lounge-room coffee table.

Does one buy a “good” R-R or one that needs some work? I think Mr Gore’s comment says it all when he quoted “Our previous Shadow Registrar had a favourite saying - every extra dollar you pay to purchase the car will save you at least two dollars in repair costs". To me it equates similarly to what was drummed into me during my early days in a drawing office, “That extra hour you spend at the drawing board can save someone else days on the workshop floor”.

One only needs to peruse the online used vehicle advertisements (even on Ebay.com) to see numerous Shadows and Spirits being offered, in some cases, at ludicrously cheap prices; further evidence, I presume, of privately-imported, poor-quality vehicles surfacing on the Australian market? As a recent convert to Rolls-Royce (as a potential owner) I’ll definitely be looking towards the advice of experienced RROC(A) members before I outlay the hard earned funds.

Working on the principle “good things come to those who wait”, bolstered by “look before you leap”, then contradicted by “he who hesitates is lost”, I now find myself in a total state of confusion (if I wasn’t before).
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 296
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 04 September, 2004 - 10:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John,

Further to your last paragraph, may I add the most important cliche of all "everything comes to those who wait - some just have to wait longer than others"!!!

Do your homework, take every opportunity to drive, crawl under/over/around the models you are interested in and then look for the colour/trim combination you prefer.

Then and only then should you face the decision as to whether you buy a low-price car that needs work or a high-price car in good condition. Given the cost of repainting and retrimming a car; it may be a rational decision to buy a car in poor mechanical condition but with good paint/trim in your preferred combination than to buy a car in good mechanical condition but have to respray/retrim to your preference.

Have I confused you even more now!!!!!!!!
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John Dickinson
Experienced User
Username: au2018

Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, 04 September, 2004 - 14:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have I confused you even more now? Exponentially Mr Dare. No, it's all good information and I thank you (and others) for your contributions.

But I have one question I've been meaning to ask for some time on the RROC(A) forum. Do most RROC(A) members, considering sale of their vehicles, tend to advertise the sale/s in Praeclarum, London & Derby (including other state branch publications where applicable) or on this forum... or do they turn to the wider public market? Is there a trend to keep the vehicles "within the fold" so to speak?
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James Aitken
New User
Username: james_a

Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, 04 September, 2004 - 21:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John, Hi - good to hook up again. No, I did not rescue that Shadow. I spent too much time in the vortex of indecision.

The reality is that “she who must be obeyed” seems to prefer the look of Silver Clouds. I too prefer their look, but they are less frequently advertised and about twice the price of a Shadow. I also have concerns about every-day use of a Cloud.

Comments anyone? (Bet this stirs up a hornets nest)

Regarding advertising, I am lead to believe Praeclarum is THE place. Again, comments anyone? I am yet to join RROC and receive it. I had the paperwork ready to mail... now only if I could remember where that safe place was that I put it!!
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Bill Coburn
Grand Master
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 249
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 05 September, 2004 - 10:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

For what it is worth my S2 when it is running and which I love dearly, has the visibility (the driver's that is) of a closed down Sherman tank. Parts are getting slightly iffy the engine is now ancient and it rides like a board. All this in comparison with my Spur. But I still love it. The Spur looks like a Ford LTD - no argument which suits me but I hope not the vandals!

Personally for everyday use I would chase a pre '86 Spur/Spirit ie without fuel injection!
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 299
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 06 September, 2004 - 18:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John & James,

The best place to look for R-R/B "for sale" ads is definitely the State newsletters and "Praeclarum" - some cars will also be advertised in the general news media but tend to be at the bottom end of the market.

One option I would suggest is to place a "car wanted" ad in "Praeclarum" as this will result in contact from owners thinking about selling their car but who have not advertised it for any number of reasons