| Author | Message | ||
     Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1540 Registered: 4-2003 |
There must be some legal brains on this Forum to whom I can pose a question - definitely pro bono! Some thirty plus years ago when Playboy was the main lap-thumping magazine for red-blooded males, they published a cartoon by, I suspect an American artist, dealing with buying a Rolls-Royce. The scene was a street-view of the showroom with a full frontal of a new car, attended by the then current style of sales person, willow hipped, slicked hair, morning suit and appropriate demeanor. This specimen was addressing a prospective customer who was shorter by far than the seller and several times past the limit mark for obesity. He wore a magnificent double-breasted overcoat, Trilby or perhaps a Fedora, huge sunglasses and a very 'continental' expression on his face. He is looking at the car - clearly able to purchase it, a 'for-certain buyer'. The sales person is replying to a question from the rotund customer - recorded in the below-cartoon space:- 'I am sure you like the car sir, but I am not sure if the car likes you!" I was producing Praeclarvm at the time complete with Varityper, pasted copy and offset printers - in black and white! I wrote to Playboy and asked if I could publish their cartoon explaining that the readers, in the main (at that time) were impoverished owners of the marque and generally appreciated humour! A very smart reply was received advising of the grant of a one time licence to publish and please send a Money Order for US$50-00! Having a wife and three offspring, a mortgage, a ten year old car and still riding my bike to work, not to mention the complete absence of a working fund for incidentals and of course no honorarium, I declined the offer and did not publish. My question, (at last he said) is have the laws on copyright been amended to allow cartoons to be published on these pages or those of the Branch magazines or Praeclarvm without Portia descending on the perpetrator and bankrupting us all? | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2012 |
As I understand it, you can't just copy other people's work without permission. But there is an extension to the Copyright Act called "Fair use". Under the "fair use" rule, you can copy a small portion of the work if it is for the purposes of review, comment, criticism, parody, research, teaching, etc. I am not a lawyer, this probably differs in different countries. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1449 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, I remember that cartoon. If you wish to use the "fair use" provision to republish material, it would help your case if future problems arise by including an attribution to both the author/creator and the publication it appeared in; if it was published on a non-profit medium such as this forum, this would be expected to enhance the defence of fair use. If it was used for profit then I would expect problems. Another factor would be the period of time that applies to copyright in the country where the material was republished. Of course, the creator/author and/or publisher has to become aware of the publication for action to be taken and be able to show they have suffered loss/damage as a consequence of republication if they are to claim damages. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.91 |
Fair use will be over ridden if the owner of the rights has asked for money and the publisher has ignored the payment. In other words if the owner asks for £100 then the publisher will owe the money if he publishes. I would stay away from copyright material unless the LEGAL owner agrees in writing. Note that the person who composed whatever may not own the rights and loads of people have been caught out like this. I have copies of engineering drawings that I have done but they belong to an ex employer. They are of a shelter for public parks. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2013 |
Bill your question may be a legal one but the answer lies not in the law but in the financial reality of the situation. I practiced for 10 years a lot of the time with very wealthy and powerful firms. The law is really the realm of the rich and justice is bought by the buck and big loads of it. The first thing you do as a lawyer is work out if your target is worth litigating against. In your case the answer was no. Playboy would have been chucking Hughs money into a shredder to sue you. Had you published the cartoon the most pain you would have felt would have been a letter from Playboys Sydney lawyers threatening you with legal proceedings if you did it again and its unlikely Hughs legal department would have gone to the expense of even engaging lawyers in Australia to send you a letter because even that would have cost them a lot more than $50. The other thing to remember is even if you were rich or the club was rich there is a difference between party party costs and party solicitor costs. So if you got sued Playboy could only be awarded costs pursuant the the cost scales in the court which when I practiced 16 years ago was half of the party solicitor costs. | ||
| Kevin Lagden Prolific User Username: kevin Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2009 |
Reminds me of a story of a disheveled looking gentleman walking into Garrads the jewellers in London and picking up a rather expensive watch. Served by the typical suited a booted, and no doubt monocled, salesman of the time, he exclaimed that "perhaps Sir would like to look at a timepiece not quiet as expensive as the one he had chosen. Only later did he find out that the gentleman in question was Mick Jagger... Book and cover etc etc... | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 694 Registered: 1-2008 |
That's a bit like a scene in "The Yellow Rolls Royce". An air-head blonde jumps into the Rolls and squeals in delight while urging here overdressed 'escort' to buy it. The sales person recommends a car more fitting to her companion's wallet. The gentleman proceeds to slowly crush the sales person's hand in the car door while a flunky writes a cheque for it. As a bootlegger and crime lord he has more money than all previous owners put together! | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 323 Registered: 5-2009 |
I recall an article in some magazine or other, which described the author's visit to several Rolls-Royce dealers. Each visit he looked rather scruffy, walked in and looked over some cars, and when a sales associate approached he asked for a drive. He always got it without question. Afterward he explained his actions to the dealer and he was repeatedly assured by the managers that they were very aware that their customers were often not to be judged by dress and demeanor. There was a gentleman in our area of very senior years who owned a successful logging company. He wandered into a dealership for large trucks and was totally ignored by the young sales associate on duty. The gentleman left after a while and visited a competing dealer in town where he was greeted by another young salesman, who sold him about 15 trucks that morning. This salesman called his buddy, who happened to be the first salesman, and related the great news. The buddy was very sad after that call. I bet he greets everyone promptly now. Lesson learned the hard way. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 533 Registered: 5-2012 |
New hires at Caesars Entertainment in Las Vegas are told the same as the RR dealerships - ignore a person's attire. Some really high rollers turn up in tatty jeans and tee shirts. It's good business sense. I guess the young salesman in your area learned the hard way. | ||
| Gordon Borkat Unregistered guest Posted From: 74.190.23.42 |
A few years ago, we were dressed very casually, and looked in the window of the Rolls Royce dealership in Shanghai. The salesperson waved us away from the window--and it was not toward the door. We did move, and had nothing to do with them after. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2013 |
When I worked as a saleman at a large Perth dealership many years ago selling used junk like Holden Commodores (actually the dealership sold everything from RR/B down) I was told by the Sales Manager that a farmer had come into the main salesroom where he spotted a brand new Cadillac Elegante (No sure if that's the correct name it was that Cadillac with the sloping down boot/trunk,) anyway, the farmer was in his work gear. He wanted to have a look at this Cadillac but the salesman put on the toff act and made some frivolous comment about the farmer not being able to afford it. The farmer was a tad annoyed so he walked up the street through a door straight into the company directors office ignoring the secretary's protests and said "mate I want to buy that Cadillac but theres a ****ing problem" (no joke the price was $60,000 AUD in 1978) The director knew the farmer from previous massive purchases and asked him what the problem was. The farmer said he just could not buy it unless the offending salesman was sacked. The director sacked the salesman on the spot and the farmer drove the Caddy away. Oh yeh. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1154 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, You're probably referring to the 1980-1985 Cadillac Seville, with the bustleback. One trim package was the Cadillac Seville Eleganté. I loved that design and still find it incredibly elegant. Brian | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1548 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vlad/ Your story of the Elegante would-be buyer mirrored the experience of a truckee complete with sweaty singlet and boots deciding to buy a Silver Shadow at Yorke Motors in William Street Sydney. He walked around the car, liked it but found the doors locked. When he asked for them to be unlocked he was told the keys were upstairs! So, he went across the road to the Mercedes Benze showroom and bought their top of the range car. Those dealers lost no time telling their competition across the road the detail.Don't know what happened to the salesman! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3140 Registered: 4-2003 |
By coincidence I was having a discussion about this sort of thing with my brother-in-law at the family Christmas bash. On Christmas Eve he cashed some investments and went to the main Australian Mecedes-Benz dealer which happens to be over the road from my shop in Sydney's O’Riodan Street. He wanted to buy a top-end AMG but was kept waiting for half an hour. After further messing about – maybe because he was wearing shorts and thongs – he left and M-B Sydney lost a $520.000 sale. He walked down O'Riordan Street past Bentley of Sydney (the blighter didn’t even drop in to browse), past R-R, and around the corner straight to Porsche in Gardener’s road and bought one. I thought that the days of appearance representing means were long gone. I reminded him of when my father bought his T-Series decades ago. The service manger at York Motors knew us and rang the new sales manager at Yorks showroom in William Street instructing him to give me the keys and a full tank to try it out over Easter. I swanned in to collect the keys at the flashy location. I was just over 21 years old and was in holiday gear – shorts and thongs of course. The fellow had just moved up to York’s R-R division from their Mercedes-Benz division, and made a hurried and worried phone call to the Service Manager in Alexandria. He duly handed over the keys, sweating, and exclaimed that in his 40 years at M-B he had never ever handed over a vehicle to any stranger to drive unaccompanied let alone for a vehicle well over twice the price of his biggest sale and for a week on evaluation. He was learning a new trade within an old trade. R. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3142 Registered: 4-2003 |
And, oh that unfortunate Cadillac which trashed the brand worldwide forever. A Nissan Cedric with the boot stolen from an R-Type Bentley badly hinged and patched on with ducting tape. They were sold here in diesel form only, were pathetic in every respect, were dragged off by the cheapest Ford Cortina or a Trabant, and were so despised that Cadillac gave up this market forever. What were they thinking at GM ? My grandfather had a few of those astonishing and exhilarating Cadillac V12s in Sydney in the pre-war era and would have turned in his grave. R. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes Richard, there is something about Aussies and shorts and thongs isn't there. I read an article where a journo had to interview Ozzy Osbourne in LA. He contacted Ozzy by phone and Ozzy told him he would pick him up at LAX and he did, in a beaten up old pickup then drove him to his mansion for the interview. I got the same snob treatment in New York in 1980 when I was enquiring about buying a Cadillac Limo. But I had a laugh because in the show room there was this little ugly but new car. I asked the salesman what it was and he told me it was an Oldsmobile. I told him that if that was an Oldsmobile then it was bloody ugly tiny and that I wouldn't part with $100 for it even if I was smashed out of my mind. I think they lobotomize some salesman before training them how to identify the pennyless riff raff which is always a mistake because even a bloke totally down on his luck and homeless can buy a lottery ticket and win millions.You just never know what the future can bring. I wonder if they will let me into Hunt House in a sugar bag! | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2013 |
Does anyone know how to upload a photo on the forum. I was going to post a pic of the Camargue but using the software I have I can only get it down to 1128x630 at a miserly 336kb. I have cropped this sucker hard. When I took the photo I didn't use anything but a cheap Canon camera I bought in Manila last time I was there for nefarious purposes. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1163 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, The maximum size for a photo on these forums is now 640x640, I believe. I generally stick to 640x480 or 480x640. You can resize your photo at the website resize.it. The easiest way to upload an image is to insert the image command in to your post where you want it. That is a backslash (\), followed immediately by an open curly brace ({), followed immediately by the word "image", followed immediately by a close curly brace (}). When you attempt to post you will get a placeholder shown for your image and a dialog asking you to select the image in question from your computer. Brian, heading out to the car shortly | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.92 |
Local to me there is a Cadillac Seville 1970s or early 1980s and it looks awful, still like ugly babies the owner likes it. Datsun Cedric what a name for a car. If Rolls-Royce used first names, Rolls-Royce James. Howabout a Bentley Herbert. For Foreign markets Bentley Turbo Wolfgang or Rolls-Royce John Wayne for the USA because they like more and they get two first names for the same price. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1553 Registered: 4-2003 |
The Silver Shadow, as apocrypha would have it, was going to be the Silver Mist; until someone with a knowledge of the German language suggested otherwise. But by comparison, the marketing people at Mitsubishi, bravely christened their new vehicle Pajero!! | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 721 Registered: 1-2008 |
What about the Ford Pinto? It didn't sell too well in South America! I wonder why ... | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3143 Registered: 4-2003 |
Yes, the Japanese have a way with hilarious names for cars. Nissan - Datsun are the best but Toyota does its best too. I shalln't name too many of them but they are all well known. It all started when the Japanese copied the Americans with the Colts, Scamps, Mustangs and all sorts of things like crabs and rabbits. Even the Germans caught the disease with the VW Golf (renamed Rabbit for the USA to ridicule the masses). The Datsun Scummy (Sunny) is a real gem to reflect on the Crowns Coronets and Coronas from Toyota. Meanwhile we simply had our FJs, HQs, HZs, XLs and XDs. Must dash - I'll fire up my Bentley Dubbo GTSsi and do the shopping. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3144 Registered: 4-2003 |
Mind you, the Americans take the biscuit. Studebaker Dictator. Pontiac Parisienne. Ford Probe. Hummer. Ford Mustang. Add a few more Japanese like the Mazda Scrum and the Datsun Fairlady. Then the Fiat Ritmo (rhythm) shocked the Pope. It all makes a Bentley S2 sound far more elegant. . . | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3145 Registered: 4-2003 |
Oh dear. I pinged the internet and found these gems from Japan. Isuzu GIGA 20 Light Dump Mazda Bongo Isuzu Mysterious Utility Wizard Honda Life Dunk Mitsubishi Chariot Grandio Super Exceed Nissan Elgrand Homy Sbarro Assystem Daihatsu Charade Social Poze Yamaha Pantryboy Supreme Mitsubishi MUM 500 Shall We Join Us? At least the Japanese try to use English. The Americans try French whenever they can Parisienne. La Grange. Probably even a Cadillac Grand Merde. Even using a Greek-ish name, the Dodge Phoenix couldn't raise the brand from the ashes. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.91 |
Golden mist would have been better depending what one has been drinking the night before. Dawn Mist. Pinto was a big disaster in the Spanish speaking world. Sensible makers use numbers. Even then they copyright them. The porker 911 was to be 901 but Peugeot objected. Silly really. Trouble is old gits like me can't keep up, just as I work out what all the numbers mean a new model comes out. A name like Shadow, Dawn and even Cortina instantly tells all. Pajero I thought that was Izzy Sue. A mate had one and it was loads of trouble he spent loads getting it right. Also I heard of one consuming its own engine oil and blowing up. Probably turbo seals. I don't want cars that do things like that. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1554 Registered: 4-2003 |
Pajero apparently translates as straw gatherer, and is recognised in the Latin quarter as a euphemism for Onanism - a practice condemned in the Old Testament. When Mitsubishi published the name everybody most people simply adopted the term 'Wanker'. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1555 Registered: 4-2003 |
Overall we have to sympathise with namers of products who strive, we hope, for clarity, meaning, connection, relevance and hopefully a clue as to what they are naming! Bob may be able to confirm that the English gave up on colour naming and I instance putrecent purple, nippleous pink and yehudi yellow. In lieu, they worked out that the six spectral colours can only be mixed and divided in a plethora of combinations to give some 7400 identified 'shades'! That number comes from the rapidly decaying cess pit of the part of my brain called 'memory'. So apparently in Her Majesty's immediate domains one asks for a number to get the 'colour' you desire. If this is so, perhaps we colonials could push for it rather than wonder whether last night's storm was stronger than the one last February etc etc! | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.91 |
We have to use numbers for colours because some of the names aren't good. Allegros used to be available in a colour called baby Shi#t yellow. I think someone at Dulux had a hang over and accidentally mixed a couple of tons of the stuff. The cars that colour were on special offer. We added some graphics to get them sold. The cars looked awful. One of the upper management said he thought it was disrespectful that the employees didn't buy them. He had a XJ12. Actually the allegro was a good car with the 1500cc And 5 speed box. But the 1300 and 4 speed was lost on a fast road. I sort of find German easy to translate providing its technical stuff. I can just do French Italian and Spanish. Welsh is awkward because the language is old and they won't use English words they call things but the sound they make. Popity ping is a microwave. strangely Welsh language is related to the French /Spanish border area. Back to colours. We have a British Standard for all colours. Eg Buckingham Green is a std colour. However Goodwood and Brewster green aren't. The original standards were from ICI Dulux and others followed the lead. Powder coating has its own std range of primary colours, green white and black. These then are divided into light mid and dark. Also silver and gold which don't have standard shades. I designed a sports shelter called a y pod.(2004) The bits were power coated. Because of mass production the colours must match. I am working on extending my internet capabilities from a mobile phone to my lap top. Once the wireless hot spot is sorted. Then I can post photos and computer generated drawings of stuff to explain stuff. I have a smashing full colour SY1 1974 hydraulic circuit diagram. And wiring diagrams. The posting on how to get the charging voltage exactly right would have been so much better with a circuit diagram in colour. With photos of the bits. The professionals no doubt got the idea half way through. But the amateurs ( no disrespect) won't understand because professionals have a car wiring diagram in their memory. Mine is Lucas in colour. It started with a Triumph Tiger Cub and then I added a Morris Minor and popped some Ford stuff in for me mates. Tee one topics explains a lot of little nuances about RRs and cars in general. The average life on a car is 15 years which to me is still young. I believe that with care, most of which is time not money any car can last much much longer. (Message approved by david_gore) |
