| Author | Message | ||
     Clifford Donley New User Username: flatus Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2009 |
I'm new to RR and to my '84 Spirit X09211. Twice I've had the rather unnerving experience of having the brake pedal go to the floor with no apparent braking effect. In neither case were the hydraulic warning lights illuminated (they do work properly). If the car were a Shadow, I would start with the supplementary master cylinder. But it isn't. So, I'm somewhat at a loss as where to begin. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Cliff D. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 511 Registered: 6-2006 |
Clifford, What had you been driving like before the failure? fast? hills? wet? etc. hot, cold, short trip? How long was the pedal gone for? How did you check the pressure warning lights? When was the fluid changed last? | ||
| Clifford Donley New User Username: flatus Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2009 |
What had you been driving like before the failure? fast? hills? wet? etc. hot, cold, short trip? On a shopping trip around town on cool winter (here) days. In both instances the failures were within a few minutes after having made a store visit. Speeds were less than 45-mph. And, immediately before the failures I had been driving just a few miles per hour. How long was the pedal gone for? It seems like about a minute more or less. How did you check the pressure warning lights? By turning the engine off and, with the ignition on, pumping the brake pedal until the lights illuminated--about ten times. When was the fluid changed last? I'm sure it has been several years. I have managed to find 8-bottles of LMH and will change the oil doing a proper bleed. But, before doing that, if there is other trouble shooting warranted, I would prefer not wasting the fluid. Thanks for replying, Paul. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi Clifford, The first thing I did when I bought my car was replace the four accumulators. Reasonably easy to do and sourced from UK reasonably priced. Last owner thought it was okay to have flashing lights when he turned the engine off....... Before I changed it, about 3>>7 pumps, sometimes less depeding on what the type of driving. After they where changed about 28. That varies a bit depending on the sort of driving. Might drop to 18 or so if its simply been idling for a short period after standing still for a week. But high speed it goes back to 27>>28. But the system holds that pressure for quite a number of hours, even up to two days where you will still get a couple of pumps from the pedal. Glad I did change them, fuel system decided to play up, engine stalled and at least I had brakes. Just my experience. Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 176 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, Re read your post, what I suggested doesnt quite hold with the lights comment. Still you should get more than 10 pumps in the ideal world. Paul would have a lot better idea, but wonder how the pressure switches respond to air in the system. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Clifford Donley New User Username: flatus Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2009 |
Hello Stefan, I do have a pair of accumulator spheres for the front. I'm waiting a while before I get them for the back (my wife has me on a short leash--for some reason she thinks the grandchildren and the great grand kids have a higher priority than my new toy). I'm always pleased to learn from others' experiences! I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I can realistically do to the accumulators myself. Unfortunately I'm not so agile as I once was and my eyes don't see so well as they used to; even simple things are challenging. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 512 Registered: 6-2006 |
Clifford, On an LHM car, I'd expect at least 30 pumps. (after running the engine on fast idle for 5 mins, then turning the engine off) I'd go for accumulators and a fluid change. Air in the brakes will deplete the accumulator pressure faster with less pumps. I'd also expect there to be a delay in the brakes, this gives a feeling like the brakes are not going to work, but then come on FAR too strongly causing all the occupants to spill their Champagne. Gas springs only affect the ride at the rear, so if that is still soft, worry about them later. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, The front ones are the systems accumulators. Rear are the gas springs. The system is a bit perplexing. In a well maintianed/new car function perfectly. There is redundancy. The irony is the spheres age at reasonably the same rate. So one would replace everything at once, then over time they degrade roughly equally. Then in 5>>10 years you end up with no redundancy. Replacing them, mobility would be an issue. Help my old man out with his toys occasionally for the exact same reason. I did mine on some heavy duty car ramps, but not really a difficult job. Bleeding the systems afterwards can be a pain though. That in itself probably requires more dexterity as you need to chase the air bubbles through the full system. Not so easy on car ramps. I think replacing the spherers has been the simplest most rewarding of all the things I've done to the car. Especially the Gas springs. The only negative I had; might have fixed the accumulators, but other weak links show up as the system can be properly pressurized. Fortunaly the only thing that happend subsequently was I blew a seal in a rear strut and one of the unions for the height control decided to leak a bit. Thats just a bit of bad luck though. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, Dont be put off by my strut having failed. Paul made the comment. If your rear is soft dont worry about them for the moment. When they are close to empty the ride is very bumpy, you will know it, just not cool at all. That is probably what did for my strut, not nessecarily replacing the spheres. It was just a matter of time and an agressive corner. The damage had already been done. Stefan | ||
| Clifford Donley New User Username: flatus Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2009 |
Thanks, Paul, Stefan You've both given me confidence that I'm on the right track. I did drive the old girl onto a set of supposedly 8,000-lb GVR ramps last week. I heard a lot more creaking and groaning than I expected, so I gingerly backed off the ramps. They were both quite bow-legged. The weather here is very cold for South Carolina. I really should wait a few days for it to warm up, if it ever does. But, that will give me more study time to get organized. Thanks, again! | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, I know its stating the obvious, make sure your ramps are capable. The sticker some arbitrary manufacturer slaps on his product and what they really are, can be quite different. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2009 |
You've got that right, Stefan. They worked quite well for my Suzuki Sidekick, my 19-year old daily driver. They are now retired. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, I stand corrected. Front I get 42 pedal presses and the rear 37. Just tried it tonight after a trip. I was recalling from when I first did the accumulators and I still had air in the lines. I write all these little things down to keep track of improvements or otherwise. Anyway give you an idea compared with 10. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Clifford Sorry to stick my oar in. Do you know when the flexible hoses were last changed? Might be an idea to change them. So you can start again with a clean bill of health and not waste LHM later. Regards, Nigel. PS Six inches of snow in Manchester UK. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2009 |
Thanks, Nigel. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2009 |
Nigel, thought about your snow in Manchester all evening. Made me think of the treacherous black ice we used to have in East Anglia. Do you want for me to send off a snow shovel to you? <lol> | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2008 |
Clifford, thats a great idea.This is the second day of it.We had five days just before and during Christmas.Very few people could get to work on Tuesday, myself included. The local authority has just admitted they have run out of salt! Minus 10c in Oldham on Monday.No black ice as yet, to many pot holes! I hope it is better for you in South Carolina. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2009 |
Nigel, those are just about exactly the temperatures we've been experiencing here. And, they are talking about a sprinkling of snow for tomorrow night. If it occurs, I will certainly stay off the roads as virtually no one down here has the foggiest about how to drive on slippery roads. Me? I was raised in the northern part of my country where significant snow is a regular occurrence. Hmmm, I don't think I've read about how our cars do in bad weather. I guess most folks leave them garaged. Anyway, that's exactly why we have a 4WD Suzuki. Stay warm, Cliff | ||
| Laurie Fox Frequent User Username: laurie_fox Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2004 |
I know this is slightly off topic but I can't resist saying that I find my MK VI very good on snow and ice. The mechanical servo gives me a nice control over the amount of braking applied and, if the rear wheels are rotating, the servo always works whether the engine is running or not. Strangely enough I have never driven a car with brakes powered like the Crewe cars after 1964 so I don't know what they feel like. It seems to me that when you press the brake pedal the initial back pressure on your foot is merely from the master cylinder or from a rubber pad somewhere. Then, when the valves start letting in high pressure, there is a bit more back pressure on your foot. Pressing the pedal a bit more produces more braking without the pedal moving very much. Is this what it feels like? On the MK VI more foot pressure on pedal produces more pedal movement which is why I like it. The fact that there is no servo action until about 9 inches of car movement takes place does not worry me and I always tell various MOT testers to watch out for this when they drive the car. Regards Laurie | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks for the kind comments Cliff, I hope you get the Rolls sorted out in time for the next round of global warming. Laurie, very interesting comments about later brakes. Back pressure on the pedal does not seem to increase with more pressing. When I first drove Geoffs Corniche after the brake overhaul I found the pedal akin to a vacuum brake on a steam locomotive. A bit like pulling on an elastic band. But after a couple of drives I find them light yet very powerful.But, as you say, without much pedal movement.At least you always have brakes, even if the engines not running.Regards, Nigel. (Message edited by Nigel Johnson on 07 January 2010) | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 515 Registered: 6-2006 |
No salt here either!  Later R-R's in the snow - leave them at home! The R-type also has nice skinny tyres which tend to cut through the snow. With Shadows and Pre ABS Spirits you tend to end up with the front brakes locking too soon leaving you with no steering, while the rear wheels keep pushing you happily along while you try to decide 1. lift your foot off the brake to regain steering, or 2. press harder to stop the rear wheels! This is especially fun if the fast idle is on! :0 (luckily there is also an answer that works. 3. stick it neutral!!) | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2008 |
My old Merc (1993 280E) has ABS and I still get pushed along with no steering and the front locked up. Just does not work on sheet ice or compacted snow. As Paul says normal service is restored by sticking it in neutral. But quick thinking is required for that.Something with which I am not equiped!. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2008 |
wow so much for all the ridiculous 'global warming' propaganda we are being force fed!! mild temps here in Aus, at least the east coast, and snow through most of Europe.... wow I wonder what the spin will be put on this climate change... back to topic, Clifford I have just seen this and am perplexed about your pedal going to the floor... the pedal in our cars from the Spirits on is not connected to a master cyclinder at all. Instead its a large spring and rubber ball bassically that gives you the 'feel' of retardation but the feel bascially is all it is. Its the sheres, valves and LHMO that actually do the 'stopping' not the brake pedal per say, thats why its critical you wait till 'Brake 1' light goes out after starting before you move off. Your pedal dropping to the floor I have never heard of but thats not saying much. I could only think it might be a fault somewhere in the 'rattrap'? in any case get it rectified toot sweet!! You should be able to confidently brake our cars with your big toe. They all have excellent brakes. Yes i agree with Paul, leave the Rollers at home in that crappy weather you northerners are expirencing up there at present. Guess what its climate change isn't it!!.... as the climate is always changing and has done since old Henry was a boy :o) J | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 516 Registered: 6-2006 |
Global Warming Probably the worst choice of a catch phrase in the history of man. "That will be great"n & 'I'll have some of that please' was the consensus of almost all the 'rich' countries - 'lets try and speed that up a little.' If they'd called it 'Global Wetting' - that would have got people's attention and we would have been 10 or 15 years further down the line on reduced CO emissions & greener technology etc!  | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2009 |
"You should be able to confidently brake our cars with your big toe. They all have excellent brakes." Paul, I have little feeling in my feet. So, after the first incident of no brake pedal, I thought that perhaps I had simply missed it and was pressing on the floor. Because of that, I removed the carpet pieces on the driver's side so that I could better sense what was going on there. The second time, I was sure I was on the pedal. Well, I'll be switching things out on Wednesday and we'll see what happens after that. And, looking at the news broadcasts, I feel mighty sorry for all the good blokes in the UK who can't even make it to their pubs because of the frightful weather. And, it looks like an agricultural disaster is in the works for Florida. What a start to the new year. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 517 Registered: 6-2006 |
It'll take more than 6 foot off snow to stop us getting to the pub! Stiff upper lip and all that! (in more ways than one) It's the people who were in the pubs and can't get home I feel sorry for! lol. "You should be able to confidently brake our cars with your big toe. They *SHOULD* all have excellent brakes." There is so little feeling in the pedal at the best of times. If your Spirit is parked, you can push the pedal to the floor - the only thing stopping you getting it that far if you are driving is you hitting the steering wheel! This lack of feel also causes the feeling of "a delay and then the brakes come on too strongly" that customers complain of when there is air in the system. Of course this often happens gradually over time so drivers do not realise they have adjusted their driving style to adapt to the delay, and it isn't noticed until somebody else drives the car. Clifford, still sounds as though it may be a vapour lock - which is odd for LHM cars. Keep the fluid bled from each corner in glass jars to see if the fluid settles/separates into anything unusual that will be a cause for concern and need further investigation. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi, Totally off topic but been some amazing satellite photos of the UK in our local papers. In South Australia we are at the other end of the extreme. Last three days around 42. Fires are the ever present threat. Police are very visible in the hills around us keeping an eye out for the ever present idiots. Least that more worthwhile pursuit than pinging me Australia Day for window tinting. Mmmmmm Only negative is my Black EverFlex viynl roof wont be that flexible if I consistantly drive it in the sun. Try touching that when the sun has been on it for a while. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2009 |
Clifford, still sounds as though it may be a vapour lock - which is odd for LHM cars. Keep the fluid bled from each corner in glass jars to see if the fluid settles/separates into anything unusual that will be a cause for concern and need further investigation. Excellent suggestion, Paul, I shall do that. And, thanks for the discussion about pedal behavior, too. Stefan, the fires in Australia have also been in the news here; that situation is terrible. I hope the police presence helps until there is relief from Mother Nature. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2009 |
After struggling mightily in my efforts to remove the vertical accumulator sphere on Rosemary, our '84 Spirit, I finally went out and purchased a heavy-duty strapwrench. It's a tool we used to install and remove fuses on our bombs while I was in our military. As I hoped, it worked quite well and freed me from chainwrench misery. Now, all four spheres have been replaced. Next it's on to bleeding. Here's a picture of the type wrench I used:  | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2008 |
In the military.Thats why you were in East Anglia. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2009 |
Exactly, Nigel, at RAF Lakenheath from 79 to 81. I loved being so close to Bury St Edmunds, one of my favorite places on this Earth. Cliff | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2008 |
Just had a look at RAF Lakenheath website. Its well worth a look for what the USAF are doing in Haiti. Just a tip for the Rolls, make a piece of wood just long enough to fit between the seat and apply the brake pedal. You can then bleed the brakes on your own and take your time.Follow the sequence in the manual with tips from Tee one Topics. Best of luck. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2009 |
Thanks for the tip, Nigel. And I must say, serving at Lakenheath was one of the highlights of my career. I hope the F-111 gave our friends in Australia the same good service that it gave us. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, What do you mean, the F-111's are still giving service. They have been re-invented a number of times but they are still used. They have to be the most awsome sounding aircraft in existance. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, Apparently F-111's to be phased out this year. Incredible lifespan though. Guess not much matches their range. Interesting diversions, On topic here is a piccy of the chain wrench I used FWIW. Looking everywhere online and being asked inordinate prices, managed to be lucky, local hardware store was selling them for $12.95.  Stefan | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2009 |
Stefan, That looks to be exactly the same wrench as I have. I did shorten the chain to better match the circumference of the spheres. After struggling with it on the vertical sphere (it's in a different location than your Turbo R, I think) I said heck with it and used the heavy-duty strap wrench. Much, much easier. Cliff | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 519 Registered: 6-2006 |
Clifford, I tried many ways of getting them off and have settled on a Snap-On Strap wrench as by far the easiest and fastest. It allows either a 1/2" or 3/8th ratchet to be used (with extensions if necessary) to get into really tight spots. http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/6588.jpg http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/6589.jpg For those having severe problems - A sharp tap with a chisel will loosen even the most stubborn green sphere. http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/6586.jpg http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/6587.jpg Remember that you are trying to turn the sphere. http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/6590.jpg (Message edited by paul_yorke on 18 January 2010) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2052 Registered: 4-2003 |
Do a search on this site for Chain Wrench. The thread which pops up first should be dated March 21, 2007. Although it concentrates on the gas spring spheres, the main accumulator spheres are no different. The other results of the search will be of interest too. As Paul implies, if you have appropriate tools, then sphere replacement is rather straightforward. Do see Crewe's own warning against using a cold chisel: never necessary unless you are stuck with an inappropriate strap or chain wrench. RHT. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2009 |
I think the strap wrenches that Paul shows in his post are the absolutely perfect item for working in tight places. The chain wrench works perfectly for the suspension spheres; but, in the cramped frontal area it was a different story, at least for me. The strap on the wrench I purchased was well coated with rosin. Slipping was not a problem. Richard, I did buy a set of cold chisels as well as a 'larger' hammer. They are all being saved for a different job on different day. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2009 |
I finished Rosemary's hydraulics yesterday and took her for a good, long test drive today. She seems cured! I offer my thanks to all you good folks who guided my, what would have otherwise been, feeble efforts Cliff | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2008 |
Well Done Cliff.An interesting journey for all. The best thing about these forums is that threads can lead us to help initialy. And then sidetrack, some of us, to other topics. Which are outside the world of RR and Bentley motorcars. As long as an answer is found, all is well. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 520 Registered: 6-2006 |
Good Job Clifford "Do see Crewe's own warning against using a cold chisel:" Although, obviously,you don't want to go crazy - Crewe's warning was issued when these items were exchange. They are now throw away items. Although there are some places that 'top them up' we and others can supply them new at a price that it's not worth messing around with exchange or reconditioned ones! | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2009 |
Arghh! This morning we had a nice shopping trip. At our last stop, we went into a store for about 20-minutes. And, when we returned to the car, I drove for perhaps half-a-mile when the number one brake light went on. I drove gingerly the rest of the way home and, when I drove onto our street, the number two light illuminated and I lost all braking. I parked the car at the side of the road, turned-off the ignition, and let the car sit for a few minutes. Restarted it, but no joy. Still no brakes. I left it parked while I took my afternoon nap, then went out about two hours after I parked it. Cranked it up and everything was back to normal. I turned off the engine and proceeded to pump down the brakes. It took 62 pumps to illuminate brake light one and 84 pumps to illuminate number two. When we worked on the system over the weekend, we changed all four spheres and did a complete bleeding. We topped up the fluids and were confident that we had done a workmanlike job. Obviously something is still amiss. So, once again I ask for HELP! | ||
| Mark Aldridge New User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2008 |
Clifford,I had acute pressure loss on one circuit on my Shadow,despite new accumulators ,when the brake fluid was hot after about 20 miles.This was cured by overhauling the accumalator valve block.Dont know whether the problem could be similar in a Spirit. Mark | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2009 |
Thanks, Mark. I wonder what the dynamics of that type of failure would be. The heat would cause a valve to malfunction? The probability of both valves failing virtually simultaneously seems slim, but I'm sure stranger things have happened. Did the heat cause a noticeable change in the fluid, like color or odor shift? Thanks again, Mark. Cliff | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 524 Registered: 6-2006 |
Clifford, May possibly be a pump problem. They sometimes seize when they change temperature. Hard to diagnose because if you try to remove them and check whilst seized, they piston usually pops out in the process. Check that your pumps have four slots in the top adaptor, not a hex head. Early pumps had a Hex head but R-R modified them with more clearance to fix the problem, and changed the adaptor so you can tell easily. The new pumps can seize as well. You can strip and check the pumps for signs of binding on the piston, but as it's all hardened, it's often hard to tell. We usually diagnose by putting another pump on there, and driving to try a reproduce the fault. Mind you, we're lucky enough to have spare pumps around. You could undo the the High pressure pipe at the pump while the fault is evident and see if it's pumping. (Message edited by paul_yorke on 24 January 2010) | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Cliff, looks like the valve block to me. But to be sure you could perform a pressure test. Get yourself a 3000 psi pressure gauge and 15 inches of copper brake pipe. Fit a male brake nipple to each end and single flair the pipe. Pump down the brakes. Replace the bleed nipple on the block with the gauge and start the engine. Follow the instructions in the workshop manual. This is a two man job, you have to watch the gauge from the start. The gist of it is the gauge will jump to 1000psi this is the sphere pressure. It will then climb to 2500psi max pump pressure.Then drop to approx 1800psi, that shows the regulator valve is doing its job and returning excess LHM to the reservoir. Pump down the brakes before you remove the gauge. I didnt and nearly set Geoffs Corniche on fire, RR363 over the hot exhaust! Just another thought. Check the feed pipes to the pumps.They could be getting blocked inside and not allowing enough fluid to pass! Stranger things have happened at sea. Regards, Nigel. PS. I'll keep the pressure test in the post. Don't want to waste the typing. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2009 |
Paul and Nigel, I suspect Paul may be exactly correct in the problem being at the pumps (although the accumulator blocks probably have not been overhauled over the years). Paul, I have the hex-headed pumps. In your experience, is an overhaul of the pumps something that a user can do on his own? Or, am I better off doing an exchange with an enterprise such as yours? Nigel, I think I saw a high-pressure gauge on the other side of town. I think it makes sense doing pressure tests before I start tossing dollars at the accumulator blocks. Thanks for the detail you provided. When we get all through with her, Rosemary will have all the material she needs for her memoir on how good people on three continents worked to cure her ills! Many thanks. Cliff | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2009 |
Cliff, You will need a specail tool to remove the pumps. Don't even attempt the job if you don't have the tool. Paul is right in his diagnosis, but for both pumps to sieze together is so very unlikely. I would go with Mark's opinion first (to check the supply hoses to the pumps). These can look deceptively good from the outside yet almost totally blocked from the inside. They are cheap to replace and don't require special tools. Just do it as it is a good insurance anyway. Whilst at it, give the reservoir a good clean. Again, good insurance. good luck. Omar | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2009 |
Thank you Omar, insurance it is. At this point, it's time for me to find a local fabricator of quality hoses. Pretty soon I'll be on a first name basis with every shop in town. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Experienced User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2008 |
Clifford,on start up the warning lights on my Shadow would go out and would stay out even in town traffic.However,after about30 min running,at tickover when creeping in traffic no.2 light would start to flick on as the brake was applied.If the engine was then gently revved for a minute,the light would go out and stay out for a short period whilst creeping along.No problems on the open road.Unfortunately No.1 light decided to follow this example in London rushour traffic!I had already replaced all hoses including high pressure,and accumulators.Also the rear suspension was sluggish to compensate loads,eventually failing to adjust.Having cleaned the whole system,overhauled the height solenoid valve ,height control valves,and pumps to no avail ;last resort was the accumulator valve block.-- instant cure!!Load compensation was instant and no warning lights.This was 5 years ago and as a precaution I now change fluid every year and have just changed all rubber pipes again.I am unsure whether the Spirit system is similar only using LHM instead of RR363. Mark | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2009 |
Mark, from the photos I've seen, there are many similarities. The behavior of 'my' fault is different than yours in that no matter what I do with engine speed, there is no return of pressure in either system. I have to park Rosemary letting her sit for up to a couple of hours before things return to normal. Early on, Paul opined that it was vapor lock. Indeed, it does act that way; just like my sister's Hillman Minx would lose fuel to the carburetor when the temperature rose above 30c. I think on mine the low-pressure lines from the reservoirs to the pumps are steel. I suppose I could carry a jug of water and pour it on the pipes when the problem occurs. If that clears it, it is vapor lock. Cliff | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Cliff, have another look at the low pressure pipes to the pumps. They are metal where they connect to the side of the pumps. But rubber in between. Get the genuine hoses if you can. Have to be LHM compatable. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 525 Registered: 6-2006 |
Grrrrrr - I am beginning to hate the preview post, post buttons on this board! I don't know if it's me or the board, but only 1/2 my posts seem to be coming up! Cliff, as Nigel says, there are rubber hoses there. Always good to check them and the filters early on. The vapour lock I was talking about was at the callipers. Water at the calliper turns to steam under heavy breaking. Then turns back to fluid as the calliper and vapour cools. (I'd still go for pumps at the moment. Vapour locking on a Spirit would just mean holding the pedal down until the vapour is compressed , then the brakes will apply very strongly. It is possible to overhaul the pumps if you can bet a tool to get them off. However, as you have HEX headed pumps you will need to change them for the V type pump. Sorry, I'm not sure what the pump bore is made out off and if it can be honed out. Never tried it on such a safety critical part. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 184 Registered: 7-2009 |
Clifford, Just read your posts. Bugga. Sounds like I got let of lightly with a leaking shock. Have no idea but does you car have ABS. There cant be too many common threads for both systems to fails at pretty close to the same time. Pipes certianly are common to the abs block, althought pretty sure the hydrolics are still separate. Just an idea. When I did my system I used about 9/10 bottles of HSMO to totally bleed the system. Thinking only because the only other thread I can think of is unbled system. Although the front system would be a lot easier to bleed than the back so the odds of both appearing to fail at the same time. Remote Also thinking if the system was bled with significant amont of HSMO how much water could be left in the system, had there been any there in the first place. From my days with AC a pump might deliver a lot of pressure but not really great volume. Need an accumulator and a way of stopping oil bleeding back. Is there a common thread with the where this action happens. Like return spring loaded check balls in a part of the system and heat. Just thinking aloud. Stefan | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 526 Registered: 6-2006 |
Stefan, I'm VERY doubtful that it is water, HSMO isn't hygroscopic, but I guess there is a chance that some water got in there. If water was in a calliper, it would be hard to get out with bleeding, as it's heavier than hsmo and the bleed nipples are designed to take air off the top most point of the piston/cylinder. It also takes plenty of heavy braking to the sort of heat into the callipers that will boil any moisture. Pumps, from experience, stick with either a hot engine left to stand, but not cool completely, or from one going from cold to hot. When it all reaches the same temperature they seem to free out again. (Message edited by paul_yorke on 25 January 2010) | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2009 |
Paul, Yeah agree. Plus doubt Cliff would be working the brakes that hard over a 20 min drive. Both pumps sticking roughly under the same conditions. Bit odd. Any engine block will peak with its heat a short time after the engine is tured off without the coolant circulating. Guess its plausible. If the condition was repeated should be able to use the screwdriver stethocope to figure out if it was temporaily siezed. Not that I'd want to drive it. The other thing is the regulators in the accumulator valve housings are mounted close together. If those valves where a bit sticky, similar heat would be felt at both. Still for both to be at a similar state of deteriation would be odd. Is there anything to be considered in the ABS, if he even has it? Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2009 |
Paul, Just re-read the thread. Is it normal to see 62 and 84 pedal operations? Ie does that point to the regultors in the accumulator blocks not regulating. Something starts to fail and it tends to have flow on effects. I tested mine a while back and got 42 front and 37 rear. Those spheres had stamps on them about 6 months old when I got them new. Would now be about 1 year. Maybe the variation is what different people classify as a full pedal operation. Still seems like quite a big difference. Stefan | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2009 |
Good morning Paul and Stefan, Stefan, mine doesn't have ABS, which, right now, seems a blessing as it subtracts a whole bunch of complicating possibilities. I like your suggestion of using a stethoscope. ...as Nigel says, there are rubber hoses there. Always good to check them and the filters early on. Paul, I'm having problems navigating where things are. I'm guessing the hoses are low pressure and they run from where to where? Now to find them. And, the filters are in the reservoir sumps? The darned manual gives the part numbers for the special tools, then doesn't give an illustration. Maybe it's in the parts book. Perhaps the American owners' group will have them available for lending. I won't attempt any honing, etc., on the pumps; simply not worth the risk. Pumps, from experience, stick with either a hot engine left to stand, but not cool completely, or from one going from cold to hot. When it all reaches the same temperature they seem to free out again. This seems exactly the behavior Rosemary is exhibiting. So, here's my projected course. I'll try to sort out the hoses and filters. Then, if something doesn't appear grossly wrong, I'll move directly to replacing the pumps. Many thanks to everyone who's helping me with this project! Cliff | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 527 Registered: 6-2006 |
Stefan, on an 84 I'd like to see 50 plus. They did add shims behind the springs on the pressure warning light switches which brings them on much earlier (ie warning lights come on at a higher pressure) on later cars. Were your spheres 75 ish bar? The warning lights are just an approximation, really you need a gauge to get proper readings to compare between cars. Or swap the switches over It was design flaw with the pumps, and had it gone into an agent, they should have replaced them. Perhaps they get a hot soak, then the cooler mineral oil rushes into the chamber around the bore, causing it to contract onto the hot piston? Cliff - it's a tube with castellations on one end. if you can see the bottom of the pump, you will see slots for the tool. The tool is soecific for these cars. You will need one and I believe you may be able to hire one. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2009 |
Hydraulic hoses. I went to a local fabricator. They've not done anything for a car using LHM before. I asked what type of hose they use. He pulled out his catalog (Weatherhead, a very reputable manufacturer) and went straight to the page of the type they use. The hose composition is nitrile inner tubing, then braid reinforcement with the entire structure jacketed in neoprene. My thinking is that the neoprene primarily provides mechanical protection for the inner core and that its presence, absent leaks, is not a problem. Am I correct in thinking that the neoprene jacket is okay? This particular establishment has a well-appointed work area and a voluminous parts area. They also do service work on the hydraulics of construction equipment. In other words, I believe they have the competence to do the job if the hose they stock will work. I asked what the turnaround time for preparation of the hoses would be; the gent said they'd be able to do them while I waited! That's certainly attractive. Paul, thanks for the feedback on the tool. Cliff | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 528 Registered: 6-2006 |
Cliff, what hose are you after? The reservoir hoses are just low pressure hose with jubilee hose clamps either end. They should be fairly sturdy to prevent collapse under suction. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2009 |
Paul, I'm looking for the eventuality of having to change everything sooner rather than later, and for a local source/fabricator of the hoses that I'll need during that process. I am basically unfamiliar with the materials required for the hoses no matter what the pressure rating. So far as I can tell, nitrile is the material that handles LHM well with virtually everything else being bad. If the materials that the fabricator uses are suitable, then I take in what I'm replacing and trust them to give me what I need. Fortunately, I do have the pdf Weatherhead catalog so I'll be able to double check the supplied item against the specs in the catalog. Cliff | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1212 Registered: 4-2003 |
Cliff/ Are you not aware of our technical library? The info you want is at http://rrtechnical.info/sz/o.pdf | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2009 |
Thanks, Bob. Yes, I'm aware of the library, especially your magnificent contributions in it. I suppose I did look at the pdf on O-rings but did not realize its applicability to hoses in general. And, I do not yet have the knowledge to confidently say this material will work with LMH when I can't find a good (laymen's) chemical description of that substance that I can match with the more esoteric chemical descriptions of the O-ring materials. Then, I see a number of them can be ruled out virtually immediately because of low maximum temperature limits. So much knowledge, so little time. | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2009 |
Oops, thanks, Bill. Mea culpa. In mitigation, it's well past my normal bedtime here. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2009 |
Cliff, i have attached images of the tool I made to remove the pumps in case you are interetsed to know what it looks like. it needs to be made of a hard tool steel in order to have strength. You will also see the pump sleeve/inlet hosuing in one of the images. this just lifts off after the circlip is removed. Omar     | ||
| Clifford Donley Experienced User Username: flatus Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2009 |
Omar, that is so good! Thank you! There are two things (actually there are more) that I really want to do well in this life. The first is to cook, and the second is to create complex items such as your wrench. I can cook, but I sure can't make a wrench. Thanks again for the pictures! Cliff | ||
| Clifford Donley Frequent User Username: flatus Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2009 |
Putting a wrap on the saga regarding Rosemary's loss of braking. Replacing the brake pumps with the new style pumps (sans hex head) has made things right. In snugging the high pressure discharge fittings at the top of the pumps, I finally had to procure a, what we call here, crow-foot socket to do a proper job (14-mm). Once again, my thanks for everyone's help! Cliff |
