| Author | Message | ||
     Thomas Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.196.221.157 |
Hi all, I am thinking about buying a Corniche Coupe from 1981. According to www.rrab.com that should be a Corniche I, and on the same site ABS is only mentioned in connection with the Corniche II, from 1988 onwards. Is it correct that the Corniche from 1981 would not have ABS ? And if that is indeed the case, do you know if it is possible to have ABS fitted afterwards ? Many thanks in advance | ||
| Thomas Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.196.240.222 |
Wow...;-) I'm frankly amazed, and also find it somewhat incredulous, that _n o b o d y_ here has ever thought of retrofitting ABS to an old car to thereby dramatically increase safety ?! Regards, Thomas | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.241 |
Personal opinion only. I suspect that cost may be the prime factor, given the tech. feasibility and perhaps (more importantly) the practicality of the retrofit, given that most owners of old/older cars (irrespective of the marque) drive them rather gently or "sympathetically", as R-R/B owners might say. As a consequence, "advanced" stopping ability (from relatively lower speeds) is generally not considered a priority. If I want to proceed quickly, I go via a 1972 "Porsche" 911S with later model 4 spot Turbo brakes, which, whilst not ABS controlled, are very effective at higher speeds, whereas at normal - say general, R-R "speeds", the effect is not as noticeable. I hope this provides some input and hesitate to respond, however, since no one else has opined, I thought I would do so. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 164 Registered: 4-2003 |
Personally, I have never contemplated purchasing a car without ABS since around 1987 when it was debugged properly by Bosch and the industry. That's when it was finaly incorporated across the R-R range after Mercedes Benz suffered so much in the early 1980s trying to get it right. A retrofit to a post-1974 R-R car is theoretically possible using post-1987 R-R components, but would be expensive. The pipework would not be too difficult, but the hubs would need modifying to accomodate speed sensors. Then there are the ABS valve/distributor and the ECU. Many people have considered a retrofit before, but it would really be treading into the unknown and not assured of success. On the one hand there is cost, and on the other road compliance to be tackled. As for driving speeds, I have never needed ABS at speed, only at 60 km/h in the city when wet. There it really reduces accidents. In dust, gravel, snow or ice ABS actually works against you. At speed on the Autobahn, you usually leave generous stopping space, and a skid is usually over before you need to take action anyhow. However, I would not take my family on the fast roads in any car without ABS. Some food for thought: pre-Shadow cars with the mechanical servo have a very effective inherent anti-skid. If the rear tyres skid, the servo action is immediately reduced, and skidding automatically reduces. Ingenious.. | ||
| Thomas Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.173.168.193 |
Thank you very much for your very comprehensive answers, that's certainly given me quite a bit of food for thought. Hmm. I've never driven cars without ABS before, and while I realize that everybody was obviously doing so before it was invented and most people survived the experience  , wanting it when you've known no different becomes sort of mandatory, I probably just wouldn't feel safe anymore without  , even more so when I'd want the car as my daily driver, and I come from the land of the Autobahn. While I'm not too hot about the convertible this particular Coupe with the fixed roof looked rather nice and quite a bit different, but retrofitting ABS certainly sounds quite a bit more complicated than what I had expected, a bit naively probably. Anyway, in case anyone else should be interested here is a link to the car, it's being sold by the Cologne RR dealer: http://www.classicdriver.de/de/find/4100_results.asp?bsubmit=true&lmodelflag=10532&lmanufacturer=10113&whatbutton.x=0&page=0&lCarID=1698689 Some more good car links: http://www.autosalon-singen.de/Stocklist_make.cfm?marke=rolls%20royce&languageID=DE http://www.mobile.de/cgi-bin/searchPublic.pl?new=1&bereich=pkw&sprache=1 (In the last link all you have to do is select car make under "Marke" and then input the model you're looking for under "Modell" and press return) Thanks a lot again and have a nice weekend ;-) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2003 |
I am sure that ABS has reduced Autobahn pileups enormously, and when they occur most often they are started by a car without ABS. The only problems are higher speeds and people driving closer behind eachother than they did 20 years ago. Just about any car will reach 220 km/h these days, much faster than before, and in Germany they use the top speed often. Presumably due to confidence-inspiring ABS, people are now prepared to slipstream you at well over 200, just two metres behind you, in an attempt to get that whip past when you move to the slow lane. I hate it. However, once the road is clear I can usually blast away into the horizon leaving those flashing headlamps way behind. It is illegal to drive so close, but like most road rules in Germany they are ignored and rarely policed, unlike the punative policing and heavy fines in Australia and random hidden cameras with 4-figure fines here in Switzerland. I do I find road manners have deteriorated markedly in Germany since the 1980s, whereas in Australia the policing seems to work. My real point: without ABS, I would be at such a safety disadvantage these days that I am no longer prepared to drive any car on an unrestricted Autobahn. This is despite my ABS never having been ever called on on an Autobahn. It's a pity a retrofit would be so difficult as it is so safety relevant. | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.54 |
So the original QUESTION was. Can ABS be retro. fitted to an 81 Corniche?. ANSWER (as implied in my original response) essentially is, YES, but impractical, given the difficulty and attendant expense. Todays roads (worldwide) require different horses for different courses with the concept of a "one size fits all" vehicle being an unrealistic expectation. Although, I HAVE felt close to achieving that overall goal in Europe, via a S500 Benz, there WERE times that something like a R-R/B (especially a Corniche!) would have been preferred for that given moment or occasion.That may explain why I feel a need for different cars here in Australia, with a Range Rover (with ABS) about to be added. To drive upon "roads" seriously described as such! | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2003 |
You do not need ABS. The Shadow and Corniche have an aircraft rated hydraulic system. The stopping ability of the Shadow/Corniche and Silver Wraith 2; was so far beyond the global auto industry that they had to develop ABS to compete at all. ABS on these cars would reduce the system ability by roughly 50%. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 168 Registered: 4-2003 |
WH: that's a tall story if I ever heard one. ABS only does anything at all when a wheel skids. That wheel's, (not all wheels') wheel brake cylinder pressure is reduced by ABS until that tyre regains traction and therefore restores braking. A skidding tyre offers very little braking at all. An ABS car (compare a 1986 to 1987 Spirit) will amost always brake as well as a non-ABS car, except in a scary situation where the ABS car may stop 100 times faster. Our '72 T-series has ended up pointing backwars after skidding more than once in the wet. In the wet, these cars are known to do this so quickly it is extremely difficult to correct it, but that would never happen with ABS. The brakes are indeed superb and extremely powerful, but braking ability is what it is all about, and ABS simply provides a control system to optimise the ability at its limit. Be fair, there were plenty of makes by 1966 with powerful 4 wheel disc brakes, and many more effective than "ours". Try inboard rear discs etc etc. | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.152 |
Gentlemen. Rather than create a well intentioned but nevertheless intense technical debate, much of what might not be fully understood by some readers,(or WORSE, MISunderstood, with serious, if not fatal consequences!) may I revert to my original point which presupposes that most of us are aware of our own driving abilities,the capabilities of the car we are driving and the prevailing road/weather conditions at any given time. Yes..I would obviously prefer an ABS equipped car to one not so equipped, however I drive my cars differently (and in careful accord with CONDITIONS) hence I have never skidded in the wet (let alone experienced the sensation of an uncommanded "change of direction"!) in my 1970 Shadow, as I dont drive it with the same verve and ambition as if it were a rally prep. Audi "Quattro" (having been a white knuckled passenger therein!) or even my own (32 y.o) 911S, devoid of ABS but with very powerful upgraded, factory issue brakes. This I believe, addresses (from a PRACTICAL perspective) the essential question being explored by the original poster;i.e retrofit of ABS to an 81 Corniche. Different horses for different courses and different strokes for different folks. For example, when in my "R" type;manual (roof open and wearing the Panama!) its simply a case of "Gently,Bentley" as I crewes (sic) along the way, as oppposed to flashing my lights (FIVE of!)whilst muttering, "How soon can I blow this dude in front of me, off into the weeds?" | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 142 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hear hear to the lot of you. I think I saw a documentary on ABS which set out to prove that ABS CAUSES accidents - I mean to say.......... Anyway it was not through poor performance or malfunction but simply inexperienced drivers. Those who have experienced the system know the feel of thumping in the brake pedal when the system is in operation. This apparently frightened some drivers to the point where they took their foot Off the brake!!! My dear old Ford Fairmont had ABS and when anybody drove it I used to take it out on a dirt raod or preferably smooth very wet asphalt and do an (all wheels stop). That ensured that there were no suprises. Certainly the stopping stability is without peer. There is an excellent if somewhat repetitious video of a new bentley negotiating turns with and without ABS brakes which is most illustrative. | ||
| Thomas Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.196.250.145 |
John, nice car collection with the RR and Porsche ;-) As for speeding in general and tickets, I think in most - not all, but definitely most - cases it's just a terrible rip off that should not have a place in free societies. http://channels.netscape.com/ns/autos/package.jsp?name=autos/ticket_economics1 Btw, Germany has no speed limits on large parts of the Autobahn, but the only EU countries with lower car / driver mortality rates are Scandinavia, which also corroborates the netscape story. Regards, Thomas | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2003 |
One other thing I did not mention is that with the advent of ABS in the Spirit in 1987, I was startled to note that there was only one flexible pipe going to each of the front wheels. With ABS it was probably not practical to apply its services to four calipers up front so they linked the two together which seems to work perfectly well. The spin merchants must have cried because no longer could they claim two replicated braking systems etc!!! And finally lets not talk about autobahns and jingoistic lists of statistics, the few times I have found ABS working hard on the old Ford was coming into a roundabout a little too fast after a light shower of rain after a period of drought with the road covered in tiny splotches of oil and rubber from decelerating cars. Mix that muck up with a little water and you would have difficulty walking on it let alone driving on it. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 173 Registered: 4-2003 |
Quite correct, Bill. It is a 3 channel system. The modulator has seven pipes: two from the actuators, one for each front wheel, one for the rear wheels and two returns to the reservoirs. The left hand calipers are connected together, and are controlled by channel 2 on System 1. The right hand calipers are controlled by Channel 3 on system 2. One pair of rear pistons each side is connected together, and also on the left to the right hand wheels, and this circuit is not modulated and is on system 2. and the other two pairs are connected together and controlled by channel 1 on system 1 on a "select low" control principle. | ||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 |
Gentlemen, let me remind you of something interesting: Jensen had "ABS" brakes in early seventies, and even more, their FF had 4WD. Forgot that? So, it can be done, and doesn't need modern electronics at all. However, Jensen was ahead of it its time, I think. Adoption of their system to a RR is another matter. Just a thought. DH | ||
| Stephe Boddice Experienced User Username: stephe_boddice Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2005 |
Harry, The Jensen FF braking system was designed by your namesake - Harry (Furguson - he of tractor fame). FF stood for Furguson Four; the car being four wheel drive. The antilock brakes were mechanically actuated. As for adopting that system onto a RR... Jensen sold only 44 (?) FFs from their factory at Kelvin Way, West Bromwich in the UK. Until a couple of years ago it was still possible to roll up at the factory and buy spares for any post-war model. Just filling in a few gaps. SB | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2003 |
Lincoln Mark III had "SureTrak" anti-lock brakes on the rear wheels as standard equipment in 1970 & '71. It was an option on the T-bird. On the 12" front disc - 11.5" rear drum set-up, the rear drums were more likely to lock up. Larry tbird@consultant.com |
