| Author | Message | ||
     Roderick Keeler New User Username: cal_turbo_r Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2012 |
Hello all, I have an issue with my 1990 Turbo R (31104), and I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction. Thursday evening I started the car after it had been sitting for three days. It ran a bit rough which was unusual. After perhaps 30 seconds it died. It did not start again after this. It cranks and cranks but does not run. I noticed a squealing noise when putting the key in the run position. I looked around and finally discovered it was coming from the fuel pump relay. I swapped another relay, but it too squealed when connected to this curcuit. I climbed under the car and checked to see if I was getting current at the fuel pump, but I measured zero volts. I jumped a wire to the fuel pump and the pump did run. Can anyone tell me where to go from here? I'd really love to get this car out for some exercise. Thanks very much, Rod | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 363 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi Roderick, The parts of the system are, the fuel relay, the engine running sensor unit, and the fuel pump and associated fuses. Engine running sensor relay unit on my car is under the dash passenger side behind the fuse panel. Picks up engine RPM from think it is one bank of the ignition system. Fuel pump cutout relay in the engine bay which presumably you've found along with the fuel pump. Can't remember which fuse it is but the crimps on the back of the fuse panel can go high resistance. I actually had to solder mine. Also not sure with your year but there where mod to the fuel pumps for certain years where an inline resistor was pump near the fuel pump. Unlikely to go open circuit but guess its possible. Even after I fixed my system I still have about 2V drop through the wiring, relays and connectors when measured at the pump and running. The pumps chew about 7>>8 amps and the in tank pump about 1>>2. I had a few weird noises from relays till it was fixed. Mine was actually from the Engine running sensor basically not having enough volts to operate effectively acting like a slow oscillator. Engine running sensor is supposed to allow the fuel pump to operate when starting but only for a brief period (Seconds???) whereupon it switches over to detecting the ignition to determine the car is actually running. IE a crash etc etc engine no longer running the fuel pump cuts out. Not that this is much specific help but might give some clues. The manual has a circuit diagram for the associated bits. Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 364 Registered: 7-2009 |
Roderick, Should find stuff here for your year. Mines 1988 and probably differences but most stuff is functionally similar. http://rrtechnical.info/sz/05_sz.htm Cheers Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 365 Registered: 7-2009 |
BTW if you plough through the manual you'll find there is a test for the fuel relay system. My model involves pulling out the relay and using a link from, think its the washer bottle to test the pumps will function from that point. Almost certainly a similar test on you year. | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 366 Registered: 7-2009 |
Never bothered to look at the 30k info. No where near as comprehensive as the 20k. This is the stuff on the 20k http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz87.htm This only goes to 89. Concept will be similar I would imagine. http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz87/b3.pdf B2-32 is the details to test pump circuit from the fuel relay. The fuel relay bypasses the engine running sensor to supply power for a brief period to get the car started. Otherwise fuel pump operation is based on the engine running sensor. Stefan | ||
| Roderick Keeler New User Username: cal_turbo_r Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2012 |
Hi Stefan, Thank you for all the great information. I will work on this today and let you know how I progress. Again thanks, Rod | ||
| Roderick Keeler Experienced User Username: cal_turbo_r Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2012 |
I wanted to post the resolution to this issue. My car has two fuel pumps in series. The first pump failed. This drew a lot of amps and blew Fuse B-9. Replacing the pump (actually replaced both) and the fuse resolved the issue, although the connections at the fuel pump relay had to be worked with a bit to provide good contacts. Once all this was accomplished the car started right up. For the record, the Bosch part number for the fuel pumps that came out of my car was 0 580 254 918. I replaced them with Bosch pump # 0 580 254 938. I have no idea what the difference is between these pumps, but they looked identical and the replacements are working perfectly in my car. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 913 Registered: 6-2006 |
Good news :-) An observation : It is important to not let the fuel tank drop below 1/4 on Spirit based cars because they are prone to sucking air when cornering uphill or accelerating. This causes the pump to cavitate and will quickly ruin even a brand new pump . The pump uses fuel to cool and lubricate itself. I'm not implying that's what's happened to yours, but it's something to watch out for . | ||
| Nigel Johnson Frequent User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2008 |
Could this problem apply to a Facet pump Paul? Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 915 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Nigel, I don't think so. I think they are a reciprocating type pump? I'm not sure what they are like when running dry. I suspect they would be ok as they are used for rally / race cars? (Just had a look at their site out of interest and see they recommend a silver top which I haven't seen on a car so can't comment on them I'm afraid.) This is not such an issue for non FI Spirits/Bentleys with non Bosch type pumps. Bosch type pumps are a high speed rotary type. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Frequent User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 99 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks Paul. ACH01253 has a red top fitted.She runs very well normally but goes flat during hard acceleration.Just over 50mph the flat spot begins, I ease the accelerator and off she goes again.Could the pump beat the float valves? Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 916 Registered: 6-2006 |
Nigel , Take it for a drive with the float chamber breather /weakener hose off and see if it makes a difference . dizzy vacuum advance unit ok? Make sure the distributor bob weights are free and lubricated . Electronic ignition is hailed as maintenance free . . . unfortunately the distributors are not and are now beginning to stick. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Frequent User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2008 |
I'll give that a try tomorrow. Regards, nigel. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2008 |
Nigel, where is the facet pump fitted, and do you use a pressure regulator ? Have Red tops on my Shadow and S1, with regulators set to deliver at 3 psi. Both cars perform well. Fitted a facet cube pump to my sons Mk1 Jag but this was at the limit of its fuel lift capability although had adequate flow rate and pressure, and on a low tank it would air lock and fuel starve and would not prime itself. Had to use a different pump in this application.( Quinton Hazell) Are your fuel filters clean including the one in the pump? Mark | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Mark. The Facet pump is fitted as a direct replacement for the original Pierburg. Between the tank and standard inline fuel filter, which is new. No regulator as yet. Is it possible the carbs are flooding? I've removed the small filters from the carbs. I've checked the filter in the pump and its clear. I'll let you know what happens tomorrow. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2008 |
I've just returned from trying her with pipes disconnected. No change I'm afraid. Paul,I lubricated the bob weights when I fitted the exchange Opus unit purchased from your good self last year. The short metal pipe from the weakener to filter canister is loose in its housing. Could this be a source of trouble? Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2008 |
Ooops, I've disconnected the wrong pipes! I should have disconnected the pipes from the front solenoid. I'll have a look again tomorrow. Happy New Year to All. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2008 |
Ok , I disconnected the pipes to the float bowls and was only able to roadtest her last night. Hard acceleration up to 50mph and then a massive flat spot. I eased the pedal and she gently gathered speed.With small throttle openings you would not think there was a problem. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2008 |
Nigel if you accelerate hard using the gear holds, does a flat spot appear at different speeds ? ie is the fault engine speed related or load related ? If engine speed, it could be the ignition module. Mark | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks Mark.I'll try that this afternoon. Its very foggy at the moment, must be another bout of global warming! Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2008 |
Sorry Mark,late again. I tried her holding intermediate and she went along great. I'll try her again when I've charged the battery, ( Don't ask). Regards, Nigel. |
