| Author | Message | ||
     Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 209 Registered: 07-2023 |
Anyone know if a Silver Dawn stud pattern fits a Silver cloud? Of the stud centre to centre PCD measurement from one stud directly to the next? Or the same for the opposing stud. I discovered on the weekend Maxxis 235/75/15 are no longer. Hunting around for local off the shelf 235/75/15 appears they are a tyre of the past, so one is left pretty much with antique tyre retailers. That is ok but pricey, not very handy, and who knows how long they have been sitting on the shelf. Given tyres are not meant to be legally fitted if older than 4 years, I have my suspicions with antique suppliers, and I don't care for white walls either. So got me thinking 245/70/16 is a truer 29.5" diameter tyre for a Cloud, and there are far more options available. One does not also have to look towards LT tyres either, so a nice HT high side wall that flexes a bit will improve ride with radial performance chucked in. Not sure if Dawn rims require tubes or their offset, but I would have them re hooped if so to have them accept radials properly for leaks and safer fitment. Or address any offset issues as 245s are 9.4" wide compared to the clouds original 8.2, though 235s are 9.3" wide and fit, so its just an offset question. Would like to do some touring in this car, so having something on the shelf and import a tyre will be far less hassle. Writing on the side wall won't look so good and 16" may not be original, but by the time there on with hub caps I doubt many would even notice. | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 210 Registered: 07-2023 |
Cloud PCD centre to centre is 82mm to stud left or right of chosen stud 120mm to adjacent stud (off set as its a 5 stud pattern) 100mm centre hole, or where it sits on the axel. Be grateful if anyone can check a spare. Just measure from the inner side of one hole to the outside of the opposing hole, that will give you centre or close enough. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 671 Registered: 07-2018 |
I'll measure mine for my MK VI when I have a chance. What is PCD ? | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 211 Registered: 07-2023 |
Thank you Jeffery, PCD is just wheel talk. Pitch Circle Diameter. The distance between studs. I has measured centre to centre to opposing studs, even though 5 stud is off set. I have done it wrong. I'll redo it. evenly%20in%20a%20circular%20pattern.,https://speedywheels.com.au/tech-specs/pcd#:~:text=PCD%20is%20short%20for%20'pitch,evenly%20in%20a%20circular%20pattern. My options are to fit new 16" hoops to my 15" centres, this is done via fitting an intermediate band that fills the space between the two. Sounds easy but all depends on hoop sizes and offset positing given wheels are an important safety concern. Probably the cheapest as I have the wheels. Alternatively, fit a new 16" hoops to 16" MK VI rims if the PCD match. Both options allow for a 6J wide hoop and adjusting offset if required. This however could be more of an issues as MK VI centres may position the wheel in a very different place to a cloud. Offset also plays with how the hub caps fit, as the wheel has a deeper or shallower dish so to speak. Dawns centres screw on with a static outer dress rim, Clouds clip with a spring clip holing the centre to the outer dress rim so to speak. I imagine (hope) MK VI outers can me attached to Cloud inners via spring clips, thus making cloud hub caps that are 16" round. Actually Jeff, if you give me the OD of the hub cap centre, and ID of the outer dress rim that would be appreciated. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 672 Registered: 07-2018 |
The rims may be different between the MK IV and the Dawn when it comes to wheel dressing, but the stud pattern will be the same between the two cars. I can't see them changing the rims just to suit different styles of hub caps. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 673 Registered: 07-2018 |
I think there is a new problem that you're going to run into here. The 16 inch rims require a threaded centre hub, they thread on with a special octagonal wrench, where as the Cloud 15 inch hub caps (I believe) use hooks to hold them in place. So even if the 16 inch rims work, there is no way to mount the 16 inch hub caps. Do the Clouds hub caps thread on the the centre hub ? EDIT: The Clouds hub caps hook into place, they are not threaded like on the 16 inch rims. What does "hoop" refer to, are those rims or hubcaps. | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 212 Registered: 07-2023 |
Hoop, what I'm calling outer band that goes around the centre of the wheel. On a Cloud you have the "centre" that sits on the axel and 5 nuts hold it in place. The hoop is riveted to the centre and accommodates the tyre. I presume the MK VI is the same just different in size. Lets call the Mk VI screw on centre hub part the "hub cap"; and the outer bit left on the wheel "dress rim" On a Cloud it's just one big hub cap that clips in place on the centre. That however is actually two pieces like a Mk VI, but fastened together with one way spring clips. I'm hoping a Cloud hub cap centre can be retrofitted to MK VI outers via spring clips, or welded on somehow. Hence avoiding the MK VI screw on application, still be one big hub cap that clips on, and is 16" round. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 674 Registered: 07-2018 |
The studs are spaced 3-1/4 inch apart, see photo with the calipers _ easier to do it that way then to try get a proper diameter measurement across an imaginary centre line on the studs. The studs have a "centre" punch that the calipers easily fit into. You can have a look at the rim to see if things would work out. The 3 rubber snubbers circled in red is where the hub cap sits, it's not anchored to anything on the rim itself. The hub cap is mounted on the hub in the one photo and does not actually need the rim at all.    | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 213 Registered: 07-2023 |
Ahh very good Jeff, thank you. 3 1/4 matches mine, so the PCD is 5.5 inch or near enough. I know this as I went to the wheel shop today. What I discovered, I would need a 13mm ish spacer between the centre and hoop, as you guessed it, RR/B is a weird size. My 15" S hubcap fits into a 16" hoop, to the point all one can see is the 3mm of the outer steel face on the roll near the tyre. And it's heading towards 3K to re hoop 5 Cloud wheels. So if one chucked in buying MK VI rims for ?, freight, maybe 16" hubcaps, its looking grim. On the upside 16" wheels would be available particularly if the wife and I take the S touring when retired. If the kids keep it then its not a head twist for them or anyone to re-tyre it. And in April 2024 Praeclarvm magazine, there is a small article about the demise of 235 tyres, a the $900 cross ply alternative, and how cross plys are not so good and never where. The FIL reckons don't jump to quick, as someone may remake 235s again. Personally I'm not so sure as Cloud and S series were not in huge volume to start with, and half must be gone by now anyway. So maybe 8000 left. Ok for boutique, but not locally down the road. Can you do me a favour Jeff and measure from rear seating face of your centre, the the outer lip of the inner hoop (rim). Basically the depth of the rim that covers the brake hub. Also is the hoop riveted to the centre? | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 675 Registered: 07-2018 |
235/75r15 seems to be common as dirt here in Canada. It also happens to fit my truck as well. https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/certified-alltrek-all-season-tire-for-passenger-cuv-0043000p.0053031.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw5Ky1BhAgEiwA5jGujrYZIym8R-gMEKWWywdLOh4CzEcAIW2IBfnukL6P9-5IiWb3sQsz2xoCsyQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 214 Registered: 07-2023 |
Yes, off road dirt tyres appear to be all that's available down under, a smoother highway terrain version appears pretty hard to find. I note on the tyre size calculator site I have been using, there is a reasonable rage of 235 brands I have never heard of. Some highway, some white wall, some more aggressive off road. Not sure if they export. http://https://tiresize.com/tyre-size-calculator/ Perhaps another issue for the psychotics is side wall writing or branding. Have to admit having company name, various patterns, big numbers, and whatever else plastered on the side wall has its demerits. While looking for radial Pie Crust tyres, I found these clean skins which I think for my money tick most of the 235 boxes. Also at $155 US they are better priced than most of the antique boutique stuff. https://www.towelcityracingtires.com/Vintage/Front-Runners The same shop grooves Pie Crust but the price is prohibitive. I then come round to well, ok, how old are they, what is the speed rating, grip rating, depth of tread, is it decent modern rubber compound or just rubber. Guess all one has to do is ask along with do they export. Not exactly around the corner though, and I am probably looking for what doesn't exist. What is pretty cool I think, is I have my original Avon Turbospeed 8.2x15 RR/B pie crust spare to compare with. Being hidden in the boot for all those years there is no perishing on it at all, quite amazing. It may be 8.2" wide but the section width, or the bit that hits the road would only be 6 1/4" wide. The rest is side wall bulge. Quite interesting to see how old school compares to modern. | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 215 Registered: 07-2023 |
Check this out Jeff, its at the heart of easy to source tyres. I've been following some guy on holidays driving his Rolls around France, another through India. That started an idea of floating the S abroad to do the same when retired. Wife thinks it's a crock, in the car that is, not the travel. But I think if it's reliable then what a novel and fun way to travel. As I said to the wife the whole dam thing will be rebuilt and we can even sleep in it being a Radford! Anyway I came across some guy selling a similar logo'd badge without the square framing, just like a car club one that mounts on a badge bar. He thinks its worth way more then the novelty thing it is made in the 70s, plus it needed repair, so I found this one. Even better as it mounts on the grill and far harder to steel. Gordy, corny, bit of fun, and says exactly who's in the Bentley. Not everyones thing, but I love it and what it represents. Think it would also be a conversation starter.  | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 220 Registered: 07-2023 |
Here is a 16" rim of a Bentley Blizzard. If you look closely at the top where the hub cap meets the tyre, is not an exposed rim? Before I mentioned my 15" S hubcaps fit into 16' rims. The two I tried it on fitted better than the image. Jeff when you can, can you give me the OD of you complete hub cap pls.  | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 681 Registered: 07-2018 |
The rim is exposed and the hub cap sits just inside like that, the caps do not cover the rim. Mine is like that too and that is also the same style as mine. Note the 6.70 and not 6.50, the Avon tires are the only ones on the planet that are that size in a radial tire. Many people complain that Avon tires ride too soft and make the steering very vague, especially on the Shadows/T-type's. Hence the nick-name "Roly Poly" that the Shadow's got with those tires. RR tire pressure rating was kind of low too which made the problem even worse. One of the most expensive tires out there as I'm sure you know. I'll get that measurement in a few days, the car is back on the road and seems to be running well (touch wood), all the mods and fixes that I did are OK so far. One of the worst was the Wraith damper leaking out the font, it would get all over the belt and splatter oil everywhere. | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 221 Registered: 07-2023 |
ahh very interesting, the S hubcap covers the whole rim, so just hubcap then rubber so to speak. The rim is 424mm as its widest, with the hub cap at 435mm. I am discovering US tyre retailers don't ship internationally any more. Tire Rack, Discount Tire, and the little ol shop with the clean skin sidewalls all wont. Perhaps some ruling has come into freight movements, or it's a matter of just finding a shop that will. On the flip side I did get some good news from an Australian antique tyre seller, to my amazement and joy 235s are available at $195 + $50 freight per tyre. They are made in Thailand by a US company. They tell me the expect them to be available for long time. So perhaps the exercise has been moot. As for rolly polly I am going to fit the aftermarket upgraded say bars I think. It will still be rolly polly I imagine, you can't stop 2.1/4T with just sway bars and tyres, maybe you can slow it. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 683 Registered: 07-2018 |
The hub cap rim measured up at 43 cm or 430 mm, from edge to edge on my car. That's pretty much bang on too, I removed the hub cap and measured the distance on a flat surface with 2 straight edges up against each edge. So 1/2 mm larger on your part. And incidentally, whom ever detailed that tire on the Blizzard, sure left a blotchy mess with what ever "tire shine" product they used. Ever tried to get a nice even low sheen on a black wall tire, it's not easy. All the oxidized rubber has to be removed first before the use of any product, or you end up with this.  | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 223 Registered: 07-2023 |
Ahh why I am so not interested in concourse or showing ones car. Have you picking on me haha. I do like the colour separation on those hubcaps, it has a wider band of colour than the Cloud/S and looks quite balanced. It also looks as if the outer silver is painted. I thought for sure it would be chromed being a luxury car, maybe not. Thank for the measurements Jeff, all good stuff. | ||
| Jeff Martin Frequent User Username: jeff_r_1 Post Number: 684 Registered: 07-2018 |
I'm not picking on you Jason, but I will on that Blizzard car. For such an expensive car where photos are concerned, I would expect things to be perfect _ for sure with no blotches. My hub caps are chromed where theirs is painted red. My ring is painted the dark colour of the car, and theirs is silver, or it could even be aluminum.  Here's a video of the other style that I've seen on earlier cars, just for the sake of curiosity. I think they would rather odd on a Bentley S1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=_ZdkKwCutW8 | ||
| Jason Watson Frequent User Username: crikeydawn Post Number: 224 Registered: 07-2023 |
yeh na that Wraith is not going to work. I do like your darker colour being the greater. I'm not sure the lighter would work as well. I feel, or the way I see it, as the S is a coach built car, though only a Radford, gives some scope one can have what one wants if they pay. Of course if you asked RR-B to paint your hubcaps how you like when ordering the ol Standard Steel, than one can also have what they want. Probably just a matter of asking especially before the deal is done. The car will be green, silver, chrome, so would like the hubcaps to reflect that, either in equal proportions or ratios that reflect the greater colour to the lessor. I guess its a small something that can effect the whole. I bought myself a little matchbox Cloud to paint it up in the colours and scheme I'd like to use. I imagine when the time comes I'll probably paint various hubcaps in various styles and see what flows or doesn't. Of course the ones who like to will point out that is perhaps not right. However if no images were to be found of the original car leaving Bentley, or Radford works with its owner, then who's to say. Of course it has to be done tastefully, but ones taste may not work for the other. Bit like the Wraith. |
