| Author | Message | ||
     Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2012 |
Many of you will be aware of my long-running saga with my 1984 Spirit refusing to idle. She is now in the hands of Frank Dale's French operation, who have come up with 3 faults. Two of them are said to be related to my problem - a) an engine in 'serious' need of tuning - b) a 'sticcky' (their word) gearbox which is thought to be the primary cause of the engine stalling when drive is engaged - and c) a 'sticcky' front brake. The last would be a leaking wheel cylinder I've been aware of, and the engine in 'serious' need of tuning is not news - but 'sticcky' gearbox? Has anyone any idea what gearbox fault would cause the engine to stall when drive is engaged? Thanks! Rod Waite | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1079 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Rod, I pesume your car has the T400 Turbohydramatic - R-R in their infinite wisdom set this transmissions up with inbuilt clutch slip to give imperceptible gear changes; this comes at the cost of increased wear on the clutch plates. The resulting residues are distributed throughout the transmission and can cause the shuttle valves and clutch pistons to move erratically giving uneven and abrupt gear changes. The cure is to do a complete overhaul of the transmission and torque convertor flush to get rid of the clutch dust [sludge]. Specialised equipment and knowledge is needed to do the convertor flush however any transmission workshop specialising in GM vehicles will have the ability to do this. As this is a torque convertor transmission with no direct lockup to the rear wheels; it is difficult to understand how it can stall the engine unless the torque convertor is seized solid - in this case I would expect the engine to stall immediately when any gear is selected. A quick check of the transmission oil colour would indicate if there is a clutch wear problem, the oil will be a dirty brown with sludge instead of the usual clear red colour. Just wipe some oil from the transmission dipstick after running enginee for a few minutes on some white tissue paper and you will soon see any discolouration/sludge. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello David, and thank you for the overview - even I grasped it! The Manual doesn't say which model is fitted, but being a 1984 Car I guess it's as you say. I wondered about the transmission causing the engine to stall - it has always performed faultlessly, and still does, with smooth changes nearly enough imperceptible. But I can't argue with RR trained (I suppose) mechanics. Apart from checking the transmission fluid level I've never had occasion to do anything, or query it. The oil seemed clear ... but what do I know? I still believe the engine stalls are down to erratic engine running - certainly there's no question of the transmission locking up in any situation. Indeed, on my forays up and down my driveway it has behaved perfectly. I am awaiting further details and hoping they're not going to let me in for unnecessary costs! Thank you and stay well Rod | ||
| Michael Hicks Experienced User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2011 |
I haven't herd off sticky!!!! but if the Engine is running Ruff then it could stall when you select Drive I would get the Engine Running first and then see what the box is doing | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 320 Registered: 1-2008 |
Depending on how bad the wear has gone you can still do a fair job of flushing the box to get it working again. It just requires a series of 3 to 5 draining and refilling cycles and running the car for a few miles inbetween each such cycle. Assuming that you can drain half the ATF each time the concentration of old fluid will be down to about 3% after 5 of them which is as close to a complete drain, flush and refill as makes no difference. I've done this successfully on other makes of gearboxes to give them a new lease of life. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Michael and Ian, and 'sticcky' is M: Teissier's word - his English is picturesque, but generally better than my French! He runs the RR garage in Villeneuve-sur-Lot, the only RR workshop outside Paris. I'm hoping to be enlightened on Monday as to what it actually means - I imagine 'gungy' but it's never given a moment's trouble. Cross fingers ... Stay well Rod. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2008 |
Rod, IMHO get the engine and brakes sorted and then contemplate the gearbox! I am struggling to understand how a gearbox could stall the engine at tickover unless the torque converter is virtually seized; and I would have thought that unlikely. I have spoken to a couple of friends in the motor trade and they have not come accross this. Their reaction was sort the engine! Best of luck Mark | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1080 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jan, your procedure does remove some but not all clutch plate residues distributed throughout the torque convertor and transmission body. The problem is the torque convertor does not drain when you drain the transmission case so you have 2 litres or more of contaminated fluid remaining to recoat the components after refilling. The convertor also holds more than its fair share of solid contaminants as well. Flushing the torque convertor requires drilling a drain hole in the case and using a pressure pump to flush the internals hence the specialised equipment and knowledge to drill the hole in the right location to both drain the convertor and not create a future dynamic imbalance - the torque convertor spins at engine speed and has to be dynamically balanced to avoid vibration and associated problems. If there has been a clutch pack failure, it is essential that both the torque converter and transmission body are properly flushed to remove the clutch friction material debris to avoid future problems. You are removing both debris and degraded fluid not just degraded fluid. In the case of degraded fluid, your suggestion has some merit but is not best practice even though it is commonly used. The transmission oil filter should also be changed after every second flush as well. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1384 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is another flushing scheme that my transmission man used to do. This involved disconnecting a line from the oil cooler and running the engine, at the same time a suitable funnel is placed in the filler tube and copious transmission fluid is poured in. Clearly a two man job but should be the most effective flushing system. Whenever a transmission is overhauled the torque converter is always replaced with an exchange unit. The latter is opened peripherally with special cutting equipment, the innards cleaned and any damage/worn parts replaced. It is a minor part of the bill but quite essential to avoid visiting the problems of the old converter onto the newly refurbished transmission. Otherwise simply change the transmission oil at least every 20,000K regardless of what it costs. This means changing the filter and affording yourself a view of the sump for residue! | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 322 Registered: 1-2008 |
I'm aware that you can't just drain all the ATF out of the box/TC and I even said so. That is why I advocated a regimen of a series of drains and refills while giving the old bus a blast down the road inbetween each. Of course it doesn't clean out every last speck of the contaminants, but nothing less than a complete strip down and clean can do that. As a DIY option it's about as effective as any and a lot better than most. However you could always drain a couple of litres at every service while the fluid is still hot (just as you would with the engine oil)and replace it with much the same effect. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2012 |
Wow, guys, I'm getting more worried by the minute as I can see the cost soaring out of control ... I'll ring M: Teissier tomorrow morning to try and establish what's being done, and why! I quite agree that the first priority is to sort the engine out. The problem began when she started to stall when I stopped, and wouldn't tick over evenly. Both got worse over a period of time, and nothing I have done has had any lasting effect. Hopefully, all will be revealed tomorrow! Thanks for your interest and advice! Rod | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2010 |
Rod The only "sticcky" I'm aware of is a rather glutinous toffee!! Thinking laterally, such is my wont, the term "sticcky" reminded me of the degredation products formed and found in old petrol which may, on combustion, form "sticcky" residues. Just a thought - in recent months Echo has seen little use and in consequence the petol in the tank has been hanging around for some time hence it might, as a very sinple measure, be worth draining the tank and refilling with fresh petrol. Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2008 |
I doubt that the condition of the jungle juice in the tank would/could have much bearing on the gearbox. However a tired box or ATF can result in jerky and/or delayed gear shifts especially in reverse. I had much the same trouble in my Toyota (since replaced with a manual Vauxhall Monterey - really an Isuzu Trooper in mufti). Although a flush and replacement of the ATF made things much better the car had been left too long with the old fluid in it and the whole box and TC had to be replaced. However that car had done well over 150K klicks by the time I bought it and the condition of the engine was less than ideal. It grenaded within 2 days of buying it! Fortunately I was expecting something along these lines and had budgeted for it, but it indicted the level of inattention the car had seen during its previous ownerships. As for having 'old' petrol in a car: I recently bought a little Rover Cabriolet to use this Summer while I take The Old Girl off the road to do all the things that have been niggling me for the past couple of years. It had been garaged for around 5 years and surprisingly had almost a full tank of unleaded in it. After a bit of prophylactic work to prevent it seizing up and to check the oil, coolant, etc it fired up first turn of the key and ran as smooth as a sewing machine! Why it had ever been left so long I couldn't say as all it needed to pass the MOT was 2 front tyres, a battery and a strip down, clean and grease of the calipers all round. In a couple of hours it will have 6 months road tax on it to give me a Summer's worth of top-down-wind-in-your-hair-bugs-in-your-teeth motoring. | ||
| Anton De Bloch Unregistered guest Posted From: 77.197.252.90 |
Good morning No matter what the problem is with your gearbox, the garage in question, as all French garages, are obliged by law to give you a written detailed estimate. "Verbal", is proverbial BS for I am not sure what is the problem and usually the basis for an expensive invoice. Kind regards De Bloch (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2012 |
Good afternoon, and a fine one it is here in western France. I have spoken with the Chief at Continental Autos this morning, and he explained that there is a faulty small part that he is replacing in the gearbox - he referred to it as a 'capsule' and is waiting for a new one to arrive. He assured me that it could indeed cause the engine to stall on engaging gear, though it may not be the only cause. He expects Echo to be ready for collection early next week, and is preparing an estimate for the repairs required. I am very nervous about this estimate! Thanks and best wishes Rod | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1081 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sounds like the transmission modulator on the side of the gearbox which is connected to the engine vacuum system. An air leak from this component and/or the associated vacuum line could be a possible cause of poor idling. I must admit I overlooked this component as a possible cause as it is not a common source of air leaks but can cause transmission problems if it fails or, in the case of the adjustable version, is incorrectly adjusted. These are not an expensive part to purchaase and install - just unscrew from the case and screw in the replacement. The following link gives the US cost of this item - I used B & M parts to rebuild the T400 transmission on DRH14434 and was very happy with their quality: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-20234/ | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 161 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi Roderick, In a month or so my family and I will be having holiday in Sarlat-la-Caneda, not far off Villeneuve. I invite you to a bottle of (good) wine, in case that you can make it to the Manoir :-) It will make a nice test drive for you too. Best regards, Lluís | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello David, and bless your boots and little cotton socks! At a stroke you have solved several issues that have had me awake in the small hours - how could the transmission be causing stalls when it's performing faultlessly? Mostly - how much is this going to cost? Transmission = expensive, in my book, so your words are music to my ears. 21.95USD sounds good - though I don't know how that translates. But I'm hopeful. All now falls into place - thank you indeed! Stay well Rod | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Lluis - that's a very kind invitation! And a very tempting one! I hope to hear tomorrow when Echo will be ready for collection, possibly the middle of next week. I live 200km to the north of Villeneuve, and I propose to drive her home as a means of restoring my confidence as much as testing the car! After which I expect to resume our 'Roller Days', when my wife and I set out to somewhere new that we can get to and return within one day. Perhaps we can visit then, while you are on holiday ... please let us know when that is. Thank you - very much appreciated! Stay well Rod | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 163 Registered: 8-2007 |
Roderick, See your private mail... Lluís | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2490 Registered: 4-2003 |
Most important as David implies: look for that short hose next to the modulator. If it is disconnected, perished or broken then the idle will be poor. A new hose will set you back a few cents. Modulators only fail rarely, and then transmission oil can pass the modulator and cause atrocious exhaust smoke, Lluis, that applies neither to my Continental R nor to yours. It could, however, apply to my Turbo R or T-Series. As on the Conti R, and mine is very similar to yours, all shift controls are electrionic and our cars with the 4L80E transmissions have no vacuum modulator. Thank goodness that the 4L80E transmissions in our Contis are almost as inexpensive in case of major failures as the 3L80/THM400 ones on cars before 1992 ! RT. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi Richard, Thanks for the indication, but nothing is wrong, to my knowledge, with my Continental... I just motivated Roderick to drive his Spirit to my holiday place... Lulls | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Richard, I dug up a section of the modulator, and as you say if the metal bellows had fractured then oil could be drawn back into the inlet manifold with consequent heavy exhaust smoke. I had none at all ... so I wonder if it is the hose, which seems more likely than the modulator bellows. No doubt they'll figure that one out ... Rod | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2491 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rod, You can see the modulator hose by looking underneath the car without jacking it up. It is only a few centimetres long, and is sometimes bumped off during a service. If removed, the transmission will stick in low gears until about 3,500rpm or more even on light throttle. When replacing a modulator with a B&M type, the modulator needs adjusting after fitting. That entails pulling off the hose and turning the screw inside the modulator vacuum connection. It is an iterative process. The B&M modulator is called a Red Stripe or Double Red Stripe, and is available at most transmission shops. It is also the one sold by the UK Crewe spares dealers these days as the originals give people sticker shock. They are cheap and work just fine as long as you don't go up and down in altitude, so are unsuitable in alpine regions. The original Crewe (GM) modulators have a secondary altitude compensation device, and are far more expensive and bulky than the B&M Red Stripe ones. The B&M units are by definition adjustable modulators to suit all motor types coupled to a 3L80/TH400, although aftermarket supercharged and turbocharged cars have problems. Unless set up as on Bentley Turbos, including a non-return valve active during turbo boost, slight modifications are required for forced induction applications. RT. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1083 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard, thanks for providing this additional information. I was not aware of the R-R altitude compensator for the modulator as the modulator on DRH14434 was a standard GM item. This would have to be overkill on R-R's part as GM would have included a compensated modulator as standard on US cars if high altitudes cause problems [think Rocky Mountains, Sandia Crest NM and Pikes Peak CO as examples of high altitude US roads used by the general public]. I drove an automatic Mustang to the top of Sandia Crest in the mid-1970's and while the engine performance decreased substantially, I do not remember any transmission gear changing problems - however it is possible the Ford Cruisomatic transmission on the Mustang did not have a vacuum modulator and relied on accelerator position to determine change points. Modifications for the turbocharged Bentleys are another case altogether as GM preferred increased capacity to forced induction for their production vehicles. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2492 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, agreed. To be clear, standard GM and Crewe modulators have altitude compensation. The B&M aftermarket ones do not. That does cause some problems even detectable in the Snowy Mountains. When I put one in my Turbo R is was not quite right in the European Alps. However, it was not worth readjusting it for a week or so in the mountains. Also, although generally acceptable. when driven flat out when the transmission is hot, the B&M ones introduce some slushiness in the upchanges even without being at an altitude. The altitude compensator also corrects for transmission and ambient temperatures to a degree. That was particularly pronounced and totally unacceptable on my T-Series so I changed it back to the genuine one. It is not so bad on my Turbo R, but full throttle 1-2 changes at 125km/h (2.28 final drive) are rather soft when the transmission is hot. I have left the B&M on that car as the Crewe one tends to downshift a bit too readily. Below is a comparison of the two general types. The B&M one is tiny and has a simple single diaphragm, hence the $10 price tag (nb Rocket Industries in Sydney sells these things http://shop.rocketindustries.com.au/search ).The GM ones often have an adjustment screw as show, but this is usually factory set and tack-welded in position. Adjusting those gives problems. The vacuum tube fitting is on the side of the GM/Crewe modulator, whereas on a B&M it is at the top. Note that GM/Crewe units are colour coded, and differ between transmissions. RT.  | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2012 |
Evening all - another update on my 1984 Spirit. The garage replaced the vacuum modulator, but on test found the car was stuck in bottom gear and wouldn't change up. New one on me, never had any trouble with it, but then it's not been run for several months. They are having a look inside the box, but if it isn't a simple repair they recommend a recon unit as being less costly than a strip-down. The lowest cost recon unit is from either Introcar or Flying Spares, both £795 + VAT (and p&p, about £155). Presumably that's complete with the vacuum modulator and electric change unit etc: ready to fit. Should I replace the rear engine mountings at the same time? Thanks Rod | ||
| Michael Hicks Experienced User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2011 |
Hi yes that is strange i have GM 400's and don't have any problems but you never know all i would say is make shore if the box comes from introcar that they guaranty the price and check on surcharge they like that one why don't you just get the Box rebuilt over there as if any thing has to be done under warranty your stuck with getting it back to the UK | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello people, another update of my 1984 Spirit, Echo, who is still at Villeneuve. Been there 9 weeks now - but Good News! The gearbox fault (sticking in first gear)was sticking clutch plates, which have now been replaced, the engine is having a seriously needed tune-up, a leaking front brake cylinder is being replaced, a faulty 'ballon' on the rear suspension is being replaced, the leaking aircon system is being overhauled, a faulty oil pressure switch is being replaced and a slow puncture mended. And a CT (MoT) is being done just to get her back on the road. I have not enquired into the cost of all this, as I don't want to ruin my day. But things progress! Rod |
