| Author | Message | ||
     ross kowalski Prolific User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 1507 Registered: 11-2015 |
I saw this. I better not move to europe. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2289 Registered: 04-2016 |
Gee Ross. They may whack you in prison if they know what you do. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3097 Registered: 06-2009 |
How in the world a lighted hood ornament can be considered to cause "excessive light pollution" when you look at what gets spilled from modern car lighting, both headlamps and the ultra-bright LEDs used elsewhere, eludes me. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3807 Registered: 04-2003 |
Brian, Never get in the way of a bureaucrat trying to outdo their peers with the most trivial and annoying regulation of the year!! | ||
| Jeff McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 671 Registered: 05-2007 |
David I cannot agree more - these are the people who inflicted the "Do you agree with Cookies" embuggerance on every bloody page of the web. The EU has become that worst of hybrids - a civil service bureaucracy made of self-replicating committees! | ||
| Mark Luft Frequent User Username: bentleyman1993 Post Number: 322 Registered: 10-2016 |
ROFLMAO!!! I thought America was bad.... | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 701 Registered: 10-2008 |
Now you know why BREXIT is happening !!!! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3098 Registered: 06-2009 |
Although I think this particular rule is blatantly idiotic, I am not willing to condemn government in general. The reason for the old saw, "There ought to be a law!," is because when there isn't, whatever it happens to be is legal, regardless of the negative impact on others. Having been a civil servant (of sorts) for part of my career I have, in the words of the great Joni Mitchell, "looked at life from both sides now." Laws, rules, and regulations do not, contrary to the popular assertion made again here, spring from the fevered minds of bored bureaucrats. They take a long time, with lots of public comment, from point of proposal (usually, but not always, triggered outside the halls of the bureaus) until enactment. I've also learned that what I, as an individual, may find blatantly stupid, oppressive, too much, whatever, may be a godsend to another or many others. That's part of what it is to live in a society where balancing the competing rights of everyone via the rule of law is. It's not all about me, or "my group." Brian | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 702 Registered: 10-2008 |
Brian, I wonder how much of our money was spent in reaching a conclusion on this object of vital importance to society.Would it not be better spent on Covid. Mark} | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3099 Registered: 06-2009 |
Mark, You, I, or anyone can play that game ad nauseam. As I noted earlier, the process of creating anything from regulations to laws is a long, slow process at its most rapid. This, like other laws that are coming into existence now, were almost certainly "in the works" long, long before the first quarter of 2020. And while I am in absolute agreement that the Covid-19 pandemic, and response to same, is a very, very important thing it is not the only thing. The regular processes of government can and do need to continue. And for those that don't need to continue "as is usual" someone has to decide that and get that information to the public. Heaven knows the Department of Motor Vehicles in Virginia has come up with all sort of exceptions to the norm in response to Covid-19. Brian | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 670 Registered: 05-2016 |
I can see the logic in banning lights that are located in the centre of a vehicle: if the normal driving or side light bulb was to fail a car with one side light and a lit ornament in the centre might appear to be a narrower vehicle to oncoming traffic in the dark, there's also the matter of the lit ornament being a possible distraction to a driver. Vehicle lighting regulations generally stipulate that lights should be positioned at or near the front and rear corners of a vehicle. The EU would appear to be taking a responsible attitude towards road safety, unfortunately the EU are sometimes unfairly maligned. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3100 Registered: 06-2009 |
Larry, The problem with your theory being that if the article is reporting accurately, the expressed reason for this ban is light pollution. I'm also not criticizing your theory, per se, but only in relation to the article's statement: The cause of this weird decision is that the illuminated sculpture does not comply with the new EU light pollution regulations. Brian | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 703 Registered: 10-2008 |
Larry, does the lighting laws apply to the garish lighting on the front of lorries in the UK ? There are many, adorned with Leds of not in substantial power covering the whole of front of the tractor units and not all white. Could easily be mistaken for Fair Ground Tractors.Also is it legal to drive with lights on under 24 inches from the ground, as many cars drive with low set Fog/driving lamps on permanently (these are manufacturer fitted lamps ). Wolseley used an illuminated front badge until the 1970's when car production ceased. I presume the EU will want these disabling ( if any still work !) if they find out about them. Age is making me very cynical. Mark | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 671 Registered: 05-2016 |
Brian, In that case I still see the logic in banning unnecessary lights in the interest of limiting light pollution, albeit that in this particular instance the level of light pollution would be insignificant but if vested interest groups were to be granted permission to do as they pleased the planet would be in an even sorrier state. Someone has to draw the line and in this case that responsible body is the EU. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 672 Registered: 05-2016 |
Mark, My understanding is that any lights that could cause inconvenience to other motorists are illegal under the road traffic regulations, the fact that some drivers disregard the regulations is a matter for the traffic police to deal with. In general, when new regulations are introduced they are not retrospective e.g., cars built before a certain year are not required to have seat belts so I would imagine that most classic/vintage cars - including Wolseleys - would be exempt from recently introduced rules. The UK has some strange regulations that are not in keeping with general world practice too e.g., for some strange reason their motorists are allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road. | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 316 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,.... I have'nt had any explanation as to what 'Light pollution' is? Seems like a manufactured term to ban whatever somebody wants.... Graham. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3101 Registered: 06-2009 |
I am quite certain that whatever qualifies as light pollution is defined, with clear parameters, in the statute. Any law pretty much has to have some clear metric beyond which you're in violation. Think noise ordinances or speed limits. And for those who've ever either lived in or visited a place where there are few or no artificial lighting systems, when you go back home you're bathed in light pollution. You generally can't even see the sky like you can "in the wild" because the dim natural light of stars is completely obliterated by artificial light, particularly what spills skyward from fixtures that don't make much, or any, effort to direct the light they produce. Brian | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 317 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,...... Quote: " My understanding is that any lights that could cause inconvenience to other motorists are illegal under the road traffic regulations," Translation: You have a nice Rolls Royce and I don't! So I'm gonna make as much trouble for you as I can! Now picture a pathetic winger rolling around on the floor throwing a temper tantrum. Graham. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 673 Registered: 05-2016 |
"any lights that could cause inconvenience to other motorists" is a taken from the rules of the road booklet, it has nothing whatsoever to do with make or model of car, besides the comment was made in response to Mark's remark about garish lighting on trucks in the UK. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 705 Registered: 10-2008 |
After the problems in Liverpool and pending problems in many UK towns over Covid partial lockdown, I doubt the Police will be over interested in breaches of the Vehicle Construction and Use Acts and lighting Regulations. Simply reconnect your S of E and drive on ! They are so scarce in England North of London I doubt anyone will even see one. Rather fancy an illuminated B for my Mulsanne S . Mark | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 674 Registered: 05-2016 |
Some areas have restrictions on movement of people due to Covid but the police have insufficient legal powers to enforce the restrictions. That's when the police become more vigilant about infringements of other regulations that would be normally overlooked or ignored as there's more than one way to skin a cat. At times like this I think it might be unwise to become a glowing example that attracts unwelcome attention. It's a matter of personal taste but in my opinion illuminated S of Es or Bs are tacky irrespective of whether or not they comply with regulations. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 706 Registered: 10-2008 |
Agreed Larry, perhaps a purge on lorries and non E Marked, out of focus Chinese led headlight conversions which breach all of the Vehicle Lighting Regs would be a good start. It seems even MOT testers despair on this one. They fail the car , the owner fits original lights,the car passes, owner then reverts to the "upgrade". | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 675 Registered: 05-2016 |
No argument from me there Mark, I'm in favour of any lighting regulations that contribute towards road safety and that restrict non-essential light pollution. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2385 Registered: 09-2004 |
Maybe the light pollution is in regard to the driver of the car at night if so maybe a painted rear will do the trick, would like to see the written legislation from Brussels. Thank goodness we are not part of that group now! | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 676 Registered: 05-2016 |
Patrick, The UK were probably part of the EU when these matters were being discussed. I think the light pollution refers to any unnecessary or pointless light that pollutes. I had also assumed that there was a road safety issue at stake but apparently the decision was based solely on the pollution aspect. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 2096 Registered: 04-2009 |
whatever happened to good old fashioned common sense? All of that has gone out of the window. An illuminated 4 inch piece of crystal is what we are talking about. FFS...... FFS.... FFS...... common sense is what the world is missing. | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Frequent User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 217 Registered: 05-2005 |
I guess the backlit grille on the just released Ghost will be very shortlived. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3816 Registered: 04-2003 |
The whole thing seems to be a case of industrial "sabotage" by certain car manufacturers with political connections. IMHO, a complete waste of time and effort with little apparent benefit for the community but merely an aggravation for competitors of the initial complainant(s). | ||
| Trevor Pickering Experienced User Username: commander1 Post Number: 161 Registered: 06-2012 |
What about the light pollution caused by all the lights left burning 24 hours a day in the EU HQ in Brussels? Just more bull s**t from some prat trying to justify his enourmous salary. Good job the UK is leaving them behind. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 677 Registered: 05-2016 |
The light pollution regulations are not specific to RR mascots, they cover all pointless lighting that affects the night sky. Those who object to the regulations are obviously unaware of or indifferent to the negative physical and mental health consequences for humans, animals and other creatures of interfering with natural darkness. It would appear that the objectors are approaching this issue from a blinkered perspective. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3817 Registered: 04-2003 |
OK - now for the real light pollution problem. Elon Musk's Starlink satellite program - over 700 satellites released so far and lots more to come. Permanent intrusion and interruption to Earth space observatories and astronomers especially those monitoring meteorites and other objects likely to impact our planet. A classic case of "bugger you, I'm all right" arrogance in my opinion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink . | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 678 Registered: 05-2016 |
There are many and varied sources of light pollution, the EU directive is not specifically aimed at illuminated Spirit of Ecstasy emblems. The directive applies to any lights that would be deemed unnecessary and I don't believe that anyone in their right mind could argue that an illuminated Spirit of Ecstasy is a necessary or essential item. Some folk on here appear to have formed the opinion that this EU directive is aimed at RR because RR has been traditionally regarded as being British but the rights to the RR logo is owned by Volkswagen which is a German company. Also, while RR may have a motorcar production plant in the UK that company is owned by BMW which is also German. The notion that some chap in Brussels introduced light pollution rules just to annoy the British doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The British, Americans and virtually every nation have light pollution policies which they will be updating in the interest of protecting the planet and its inhabitants and vegitation. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2387 Registered: 09-2004 |
Worry not to much about RR Spirit of Ecstasy, in ten years time the company will not be about in its present form as will many other German car companies. With all the crap that the bureaucrats have issued over the years from Brussels it will just be a matter of time. Cripes German car companies were the worst for cheating the cars exhaust emissions etc. One major contributor to light pollution is around air fields worldwide, the landing lights burn in various forms it seems 24/7. Why they cannot have an automated sensed [radar etc] system that turns on when any aircraft is a certain radius of the airfield. Misty and light fog sees the sky turn orange around and above the airfields at night. That' what I call light pollution. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 679 Registered: 05-2016 |
This EU directive on light pollution is aimed at any and all unnecessary illumination. A German car company was caught cheating on exhaust emissions and was fined accordingly as it was in breach of air pollution regulations. There are many forms of pollution and all need to be curtailed in the interest of protecting the environment. I applaud the EU for acting responsibly in this instance. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3821 Registered: 04-2003 |
Larry, my partner's MY09 VW Eos was involved in the VW diesel cheating scandal and she is about to receive yet-to-be-advised financial compensation following a successful class action in Australia organised by firm of compensation lawyers. As I understand the situation, the compensation is only available to original owners who still owned their car on the date the court decision was handed down. Subsequent owners were not eligible for compensation as they were deemed to have purchased "as is, where is" including all defects whether latent or visible. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 682 Registered: 05-2016 |
David, I hope your partner will be happy with the compensation award. VW were caught with their trousers down | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3823 Registered: 04-2003 |
The compensation doesn't come anywhere near the joy and satisfaction she has received from this car - I have NEVER driven it since new as she will not get out of the driver's seat under ANY circumstances. She has not had any problems so far and I regularly check the car and lubricate the roof seals twice a year to prevent water leaks which is the usual problem with convertibles of all types. The metal folding roof mechanism is the main source of problems due to the mechanical complexity and maintaining component alignment aspects and VW Service dealers having the specialist trained staff are non-existent in country locations. We will have to take the car to Newcastle where the dealer has an Eos specialist mechanic if problems arise. | ||
| ross kowalski Prolific User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 1511 Registered: 11-2015 |
David, I had a cheater car. It had just under 120K miles on it, They bought it back and I got a 1.4 tsi jetta with the money. The rule was it had to be in drivalbe condition, which mine was because I drove it in. Of course not having first, second, fourth and fifth gears and no synchros on anything made the driving a little challenging. They were very generous with the compensation package and if you stayed with VW they gave you a further discount as well. I even disconected the clutch interlock at one point so as to be able to drive around without using the clutch. I did that for four days before I couldn't stand it anymore, basically you had to stall the car every time you wanted to stop and start with the car in first gear and just slip the shifter for each gear change. The hardest part was to resist using the clutch. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2388 Registered: 09-2004 |
Looks like the Germans were cheating big time. https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-finds-german-automakers-illegally-colluded-on-emissions-technology/a-48218578 The USA and the UK were the early pioneers and well ahead of the European car tuning and emissions with Sun Electric and UK Crypton machines. Soon those cars manufactured in the EU block will have a directive from Brussels to have there headlights covered to stop vertical light scatter, this type of thing !  Must be in there blood from the Tatra royalty pay out in the eighties. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3825 Registered: 04-2003 |
The effectiveness of the WW2 headlight diffusers has always intrigued me. Surely the meagre light provided by these diffusers would still be observable from the air? Does anyone have any information on this? . | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2229 Registered: 05-2012 |
My late father in law drove trucks in WW2. After D-Day the convoy he drove in was 20 miles long and each wagon would follow a small red light mounted on the rear diff of the truck in front. Only the front truck used headlights, through a diffuser. The convoy always halted rear truck first - otherwise they would have concertinead together. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 684 Registered: 05-2016 |
Patrick, I think the directive on vertical light scatter is already in place, I read it somewhere, possibly in the same document that deals with the illuminated RR logo. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2393 Registered: 09-2004 |
If it was in place with scatter with the car headlights then how will the overhead and high road signs be read at night, the ones that are reflective? | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 685 Registered: 05-2016 |
Good question Patrick. Improved reflective polymer microspheres is one possibility or downward facing low output lamps over the signs I suppose but I'm only guessing. Where there's a will there's usually a way. I think the directive is aimed more at the headlamps that emit vertical light. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 708 Registered: 10-2008 |
Larry, is any of this legislation going to apply to the needless flood lighting of public buildings, Churches etc | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3112 Registered: 06-2009 |
At least this article from the Robb Report, quoted on Yahoo, The EU Just Banned Rolls-Royce’s Illuminated Hood Ornament to Reduce Light Pollution, gives a direct hypertext link to the EU regulation, Regulation No. 48 of the ECE. Which is what really should have been done in all the articles. This particular piece of regulation appears to be limited in its scope to the automotive industry. Looking at other sites related to light pollution in Europe, e.g., Save the Night in Europe, there exist a comprehensive collection of regulations related to light pollution from many different sources. It would be well-nigh impossible to cover all industries and sources in a single regulatory document. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2394 Registered: 09-2004 |
We are all doomed. The worst light pollutant is the blue light emitted from LED it seems and they are low power!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2395 Registered: 09-2004 |
A snippet today. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/treat-artificial-light-like-others-forms-of-pollution-say-scientists/ar-BB1aCXmf?ocid=msedgdhp | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Frequent User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 689 Registered: 05-2016 |
Good to see that the University of Exeter would appear to have cottoned on to the light pollution problem too, better late than never. |
