| Author | Message | ||
     Benoit Leus Grand Master Username: benoitleus Post Number: 301 Registered: 6-2009 |
Next week we'll be visting Flying Spares during the Australian Rolls Royce Forum meeting. I want to use the occasion to order some parts so as to save on postage. Specifically I need all the parts to convert my A/C system to function with R134A. The fans and flaps work well, but he A/C has never really blown cold air. So far I know I will need : - R134A conversion kit http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/air-conditioning/after-vin-30000/compressor-drier-tx-valve/rolls-bentley-air-con-gas-refrigerant-r12-r134.html - receiver drier http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/air-conditioning/after-vin-30000/compressor-drier-tx-valve/air-conditioning-receiver-drier-ud11868p.html - O-ring (x2) http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/air-conditioning/after-vin-30000/compressor-drier-tx-valve/air-conditioning-o-ring-cd6831.html - Ester air con oil http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/air-conditioning/after-vin-30000/compressor-drier-tx-valve/ester-air-con-oil-ester.html Have I missed anything else ? Benoit | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1501 Registered: 5-2015 |
Benoit, I think that maybe R12 is available on mainland Europe, which would save you the trouble of converting. Hoses. if converting to 134a hoses maybe needed because 134a molecules are smaller than R12 mlescules. Take advice form Flying Spares. | ||
| Benoit Leus Grand Master Username: benoitleus Post Number: 302 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, R12 is also illegal on the continent. Now I just read that R12 gas can be replaced wit R413a which would not need any modifications to the airco system. It almost seems to good to be true. Does anyone have more information about this ? Benoit | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2390 Registered: 6-2009 |
Well, I weigh in with my own information which, I'm sure, will prove controversial. My 1989 Cadillac was originally an R12 system and I was able to get it charged once from a local shop that still has NOS R12. About a year later, though, the compressor failed and I decided to convert the system to R134a (July 2016). The shop that did the conversion did not swap out all the hoses (although I gave the OK to do whatever needed to be done) saying: The instructions with regard to changing hoses was reversed many years ago but it's something that just won't go away. The other components such as the connections, o-rings where needed, oil, etc., were all replaced. I'm now at the end of my second season of AC with the system and it remains just fine in all respects. I have also been asked to post the following, which I know to be correct, but imagine that the timeframe will differ depending on where you live, by Steve Janosik, whose registration has not yet gone through: Please be aware that R134a is being phased out. I presume that there will be "drop in" replacements. However I know not what they will be, if they are already available, if they are quality products and are genuine "drop in" replacements. Hope this helps! Brian | ||
| John G. Frequent User Username: john116 Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2012 |
In Australia, there's this product that I've used as a replacement for R-12. https://hychill.com.au/products/minus-30 | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2645 Registered: 4-2003 |
I also have successfully used the HYCHILL R12a replacement in my 1993 4WD Toyota with an unmodified R12 A/C system. The previous R134a recharges would last 8/12 weeks before gas leakage made the system ineffective. The compressor oil was purged and replaced with new oil when the HYCHILL gas was charged. I have neglected to use the A/C system this winter and the cooling capacity appears to be about 50% below maximum most likely due to compressor seal leakage from seal hardening due to lack of regular use during this winter. The system is original, 24 years/560,000Km old and never overhauled so some loss of refrigerant over time is expected. A recharge by my local country general repair workshop costs around AUD100 and I am happy to pay this every 2 years instead of an expensive overhaul with custom made machined pipe connections and swaged hoses as OEM replacements are no longer available. I presume the HYCHILL refrigerant is R413a mentioned by Benoit above. . | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1477 Registered: 9-2004 |
Many years ago I experimented with the use calor gas in the systen on a Mercedes, aircon ran ok for the 5 years that I owned it before being scrapped due to roof damage. Note fire risk as with R12. don't know about the r413a. | ||
| Benoit Leus Grand Master Username: benoitleus Post Number: 303 Registered: 6-2009 |
I contacted a local a/c specialist about the R413a gas. According to them no modifications to the system are needed. As my A/C system has been not been used for so long he believes the o-rings will have dried out and will need replacing, which seems logical. I have booked the car with them and will report back on how it went. Benoit | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 450 Registered: 10-2008 |
Benoit, I note R413a is the same as Isceon 49. which I have used for 10+ years with no modifications. Just not quite as cold as R12. Mark | ||
| Steve Janosik Yet to post message Username: catullus Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2017 |
There are a few direct drop-in replacements for R12, but most of them are flammable. One non-flamable one is thus: Icor in the USA has a product R414B also known as Hot Shot. It is supposed to be a direct drop-in for R12. Puzzle: Some say that it is ONLY for station use and NOT for automobiles. Does anyone know why? | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1766 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Steve I've read conflicting things about Hotshot. It's spec sheets say it is a direct replacement for R12 and R134a systems however a lot of people are saying it contains, or is based on, R22 which attacks rubber. Hence some say it is not recommended for vehicle A/C systems. Of course, you can't believe everything you read on the net, but if I were going to use Hotshot I would certainly research the product before using it. Geoff | ||
| Steve Janosik New User Username: catullus Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2017 |
Original Hot Shot is supposedly flamable. Hot Shot Two is NOT flammable and thus a more direct replacement for R12. And yet: Why do some say that Hot Shot Two is perfect as an R12 drop-in replacement; but for everything EXCEPT automobiles. I am not a chemist nor an engineer; but methinks that the incompatibility of Hot Shot Two for cars has to do with the differential between the condenser and the evaporator when underhood temperatures are involved. ??? | ||
| Steve Janosik New User Username: catullus Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2017 |
Does anyone on this Forum have experience with an R12 substitute called "Auto Frost?" | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2673 Registered: 4-2003 |
Not with that brand but with our own brand called "HyChill" - stopped the problem of major R134a leaks from a 24 year old R12 system with a slight but just noticeable reduction in cooling capability for a Toyota 4Runner/Surf 4wd wagon. https://hychill.com.au/products/minus-30 . | ||
| John G. Frequent User Username: john116 Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2012 |
Have been using Hychill for over 10 years now in a range of cars from a 1954 Cadillac through to my 1980 Silver Shadow. Works great! | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 554 Registered: 11-2015 |
Benoit, I've never changed the compressor oil in r12 - r134a "conversions" and never had coolant eating orings or dryers dissolving or whatever is supposed to happen. I would think, have them change the compressor oil and do a flush run, then vacuum down the system and make sure there aren't any leaks, then fill with r134a until a reasonable working side pressure is achieved. Or, Just fix the system and use r12, which is still available. Putting in Hychill or straight propane (what hychill is) seems like a pretty dangerous deal. I don't like flammable gas inside the passenger compartment. The only thing I distrust more than petrol is propane. Both pooling vapors that tend to form explosive ratios shortly before you meet St. Peter or the attending Doc at he local emergency room. Good Luck. FYI here's what is in refrigerants | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2675 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ross, All other things being equal, I respectfully suggest the greatest fire/explosion risk comes from automotive fuel and not the relatively small amount of flammable hydrocarbon gas in a vehicle air-con system. Australian Automotive Design Rules (ADR) are comprehensive and ADR compliance is mandatory for products/designs used in Australian road vehicles. To the best of my knowledge, Hychill is approved for automotive A/Con systems and it would be a very brave and well-funded supplier that would risk selling a non-certified product in today's litigious society. | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 556 Registered: 11-2015 |
David, I hoped that it was certified and legal. In the USA the Department Of Transportation certifies things for road use. The Jeep CJ-5 for instance worked if you were careful but could kill you in some situations. DOT apporved them, Dealers sold them, people bought them. Everyone has their own level of risk. | ||
| Benoit Leus Grand Master Username: benoitleus Post Number: 311 Registered: 6-2009 |
Ross, R12 is not available anywhere in Europe due to it havig been outlawed several years ago. The only reason why it might be a good idea to change the O-rings is that they might have dried out due to the A/C system not heving been in use in more or less a decade. Benoit | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2015 |
Benoit, Funny how things go, In the USA, r12 was made illegal to manufacture and could only be transported, transferred, and sold by licensed users, but it was and is still legal to use by consumers. The Environmental Protection Agency however does not allow any flammable materials to be used as automotive refrigerants. So, r134a? | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 560 Registered: 11-2015 |
Steve, Autofrost = a no in the USA https://www.epa.gov/snap/substitutes-mvac-passenger-air-conditioning-light-duty-medium-duty-heavy-duty-and-road-vehicles The above link specifically calls it out. | ||
| Benoit Leus Grand Master Username: benoitleus Post Number: 312 Registered: 6-2009 |
I had my A/C system filled with r437a gas with a dye added to show any leaks. The A/C now blows ice cold air without any to change seals as would have been needed with r134a. Benoit | ||
| Tim Millard Unregistered guest Posted From: 61.68.182.245 |
I have been using Minus30 for years and find it an ideal replacement. I have just gassed up my '70 following o-ring replacement, and it is impressively cold - whether it lasts remains to be seen. A friend has a 68, and with its chippendale dash vent arrangement, gets so cold that a freezing mist wafts elegantly from the centre vent. Cooling efficiency and gas retention is better than R134A. To my mind, 470g of gas isn't a particular concern given the potential for 100L of petrol. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John G. Frequent User Username: john116 Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2012 |
Absolutely, if you're in a severe enough crash to rupture the air conditioning refrigerant lines, AND assuming that an ignition source is available AND assuming that all 470grams of refrigerant are available to be ignited, all of that is going to be less of a problem than the accident you have hopefully just survived, and as Tim suggests, less of a problem than the (possible) 100 litres of petrol in the tank. The risk is so minutely small, I'm taking a bigger risk just getting in the car and driving it. |
