| Author | Message | ||
     Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 549 Registered: 5-2012 |
My normal method of setting the ignition timing is with a strobe timing light. However, I was wondering if it is not more accurate to set timing the "old fashioned" way. This is the method where the engine is run up to operating temperature and the distributor then advanced until the engine starts pinking. The distributor is then backed off a little, retarding the timing to just below the point pinking occurs i.e. the ideal setting for the timing. It occurs to me this method of setting the timing automatically takes into account wear in the engine and even the quality of the petrol being used. Is this a better way of setting the engine timing or should I stay with the strobe light method? Geoff | ||
| richard george yeaman Prolific User Username: richyrich Post Number: 240 Registered: 4-2012 |
Geoff I have never used a strobe light I use the old fashioned method. It would be an easy exercise for you to check your old fashioned setting by checking it with your strobe light just to see if the difference if any is significant. Richard. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.83 |
Best way is run engine at 1000 rpm advance till engine runs rough then back off 1 crank degree. Then road test for pinking just before the car kicks down, and back off timing a bit if pinking. My car is on lpg and is advanced about 2 degree at crank than for petrol. Afterwards strobe the engine and see how far away from the makers setting. Normally I find its quite close. Originally engines are set up on the dyno and using the same method the timing is found. It can't be calculated because of the many variables. They start with an educated guess. Say 5 btdc. Often when working on old engines I set up with points fully open a tdc. Which starts every engine I have seen. Which ever way is chosen is ok because these engines are only 35 hp per litre so are not very fussed about 1/2 degree. Will the ignition run a bright LED bulb. NOTE if doing this to any engine and if runs a lot better and the strobe is a long way from the factory marks then check the advance and retard devices. Also some cars need to have vacuum pipes disconnected be for strobing. Whatever the book says. I had a 350 Royal Enfield Model G 1946 and if the ignition wasn't retarded it would kick back. A mate tried to start it wearing flip flops, the bike kicked ripped his flip flop off and sprained his foot. Nasty. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 551 Registered: 5-2012 |
Richard and Bob I was hoping to hear the "old fashioned" method is ok. The reason I was prompted to ask is the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley on my car are difficult to see. I did remove the alternator to get better access to clean them up, however I could not manually rotate the engine and blipping the starter motor always left the marks in a less than optimum position for cleaning. This also prevented me from being able to paint lines across to highlight the relevent marks. I was just concerned the next time I come to set the timing, the marks will not be visible at all. Now I have this fallback position, so I need not be concerned if this is the case. Thanks for your replies Geoff | ||
| Chris Miller Prolific User Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 285 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Geoff, Can you rotate the crank shaft manually, if you remove the spark plugs? I realize you need the plugs in place to accomplish your goal, but you would be able to get to the marks and put an indicator mark on them. Chris. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 552 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Chris The big issue was the difficult access to the crankshaft pulley. The pulley is quite deeply recessed and it is difficult to get a socket on one of the securing bolts. I admit if I had persevered and maybe gone in underneath the car I would have eventually been able to get the purchase required to rotate the crank. Removing the spark plugs would certainly have made things easier if I had been able to find an easy way to move the crankshaft. I will wait until I have to do some work at the front of the engine and then use the opportunity to clean the pulley and paint white lines across to highlight the timing marks. Geoff | ||
| Chris Miller Prolific User Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 288 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Geoff, You can use the pulley on the air conditioner compressor, the smog pump, or the alternator because they are easier to reach. With the spark plugs loosened you won't be fighting compression, so belt slippage won't be an issue. Chris. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.87 |
Or remove the small cover on the bottom of the torque converter housing to reveal the ring gear marks. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1545 Registered: 4-2003 |
It may be a crude method but many a crank pulley have I polished in situe. I have a piece of pine timber about an inch by 3/4 and about a mtre long, on which I secure with staples and tape, a household scourer. When the engine is cold I give the outer face of the pulley a good sloshing with a pressure pack of Carby cleaner or similar and let that dry. I then start the engine slow the idle to minimum possible and carefully guide my scourer clad stick, under the alternator and onto the pulley face. Stopping when you think you have a polished rim and cleaning the gunk and the scourer and repeating the process until you have what you want, clean the lot up with a squirt of cleaner and dry off the residue. I then take an ink pen in white and carefully draw a paint timing line across the pulley and coat the timing pointer which you have also cleaned, with fresh paint and let the whole lot dry. If you can't see the timing marks then, see an optometrist! | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.71 |
From underneath better access is obtained. On a warm engine it is possible to pull the belts to turn the engine via the air con pulley. Don't catch your hand where the belt grips the pulley. Don't do it with ignition on the engine can kick. If using the ring gear the number of teeth divided into 360 degrees will give the angle between each tooth. The marks from RR will be correct never seen or heard of any engine with incorrect marks only confusing ones. My Honda v twin had marks which were ignition fire point not tdc. Nobody told me fortunately I had a head off and noticed the difference. It is ok to turn the engine by leveraging on the teeth using a pry bar and using full depth of the tooth. The starter does the same with quite some force. The engine will turn easily with a six inch pry bar. (or flat blade screw driver. Standard method for tightening up torque converter to flex plate bolts. My jeep ones came loose which rattled on idle, sounded like piston slap. But I am clued up with obscure faults like this. So when ever in the area of those bolts on automatic cars I like to give the bolts a spanner tug just in case. Some can be reached by starter motor removal and some have a rubber bung. All will have some way. The jeep has a coverplate which is awkward to get out. It's a jeep not a RR! On a lot of engines when the crankshaft pulley key is at the very top so is the crank journal. TDC. Some engines are timed by the distance the piston has to travel before tdc. My BSA 1959 A10 650 twin motorbike was set at 3/8 btdc fully advanced. I used use a blue rizzla fat paper in the points when the fag paper slipped and the dial showed 3/8 the jobs correct. This engine when set right sparkled, but slightest thing wrong and it was a slug. Fortunately as I have said RR V8s are not tuned at 35 per litre where as the A10 was was near 85 per litre. So 1/2 a degree either way on the crank won't show. A cousin of mine who is a complete duffer on car stuff. Read a brief thing on how his Morris Minor worked. Or why in his case it didn't. He decided that the problem was that the timing had slipped and the engine was trying to knock the piston backwards because the timing was before the piston got to tdc. After spending all Saturday my father and I went round and put the timing right then put petrol in it, which stopped the funny clicking noise. Then try to find places to refit the nuts and bolts left over. The reason for advance is that the speed of the flame front is not instantaneous. It is constant. Which means the faster The piston moves the earlier the fire needs to be started. The above story about my dear cousin shows that a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. Now he gets a man in to fix things. He has a vw up. Which is quite fun. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 706 Registered: 1-2008 |
My BIL once 'timed' his Hillman Husky's camshaft 180 degrees out. I knew it wouldn't fire up and told him so, but he was adamant that it would. Knowing that the lift wasn't enough for the valves to hit the piston crowns I let him get on with it and walked away as he slowly flattened the car's battery. A couple of days later he informed that he had put the timing right and it fired up first turn of the key! | ||
| Patrick Francis Frequent User Username: jackpot Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi all sorry to awaken such an old thread, but I am curious. I have experienced and heard pinking many times before on many cars. It is usually quite an aggressine tinging noise which is hard to miss. How audible is it on a Rolls, how easy is it to hear knowing that we drive in quite a cosseted quiet cabin? Do you have to have the windows down, or is it quite obvious. I have timed with my strobe to about 3ATDC (high compression Shadow SRH 17968 running on 97 RON), but would be interested in trying to advance a little using the old method. On other threads, I know there are different opinions about damage that can be caused by running too rich (washing oil off the cylinder walls particularly), but when I used to race Ford Cosworths, pinking, or pre ignition could be caused by the engine running too lean, and I always remember that they were chipped to run quite rich to prevent this. In race conditions, (full boost, hot conditions etc), 30 seconds of pre ignition due to running lean could hole a piston (through experience)! | ||
| John Beech Grand Master Username: jbeech Post Number: 367 Registered: 10-2016 |
I don't care how quiet a car is, pinging due to overly advanced ignition is going to be an audible engine rattle. Do it long enough and you're going to break something. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1595 Registered: 4-2003 |
These notes call up some very old memories. My father bought a brand new Chevrolet in 1948 and ran it on the only fuel available to the ordinary citizen in Australia. The price for the car brand new then was 849 Pounds! The day he took delivery he was driving up Liverpool Street in Hobart Tasmania where we lived, stopped at a traffic light and a stranger banged on the driver's window for attention. The fellow offered my father 2000 pounds on the spot. My father declined. The MkVI Bentley in the same shipment was 4,300 pounds which I remember because the wife of my father's sales manager was given one by her father! Anyway, my family used the Chev to go everywhere and one of my earliest memories was the racket from the engine if it was suddenly stressed in too high a gear. Auto gearboxes were unheard of here at the time. I also really and truly heard the Bentley 'pinging' while being encourage to limp up a fair slope in the city in top gear, because the lady owner was not keen on the 'gate change' then available. She incidentally, previously had a car, a 1934 (I think) Riley four door convertible with a pre-selector gearbox!. The earlier correspondence above referred to the noise of pinking and I also recall my mother who had little interest in cars and did not drive, 'as the car stirring up a case of bottles under the bonnet'. Sorry for that trivia but I achieved an OBE last Wednesday and am wondering what the Hell I am doing here but at the same time enjoying myself. (OBE - over bloody eighty) | ||
| Mark Luft Frequent User Username: bentleyman1993 Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2016 |
Congratulations (and belated Happy Birthday) Bill!!  | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1412 Registered: 5-2015 |
happy birthday Bill. 80 years old. Heres to another 25 years. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1518 Registered: 4-2016 |
Congratulations Bill. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2554 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, Good to see you are still visiting the forum although your contributions are few and far between. Congratulations on gaining OBE status however your help and assistance to me and others when the Self-Help groups were active in Canberra elevates you to NLT status. Our Club has also appropriately recognised your involvement and contributions. Keep going mate - your knowledge and experience is priceless. [NLT: National Living Treasure] | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1697 Registered: 5-2012 |
Happy Birthday Bill Coburn OBE NLT ILT [ILT: International Living Treasure] | ||
| John Beech Grand Master Username: jbeech Post Number: 376 Registered: 10-2016 |
OK, you got me, what is an OBE? Anyway, congratulations! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2290 Registered: 6-2009 |
Order of the British Empire (if memory serves). I believe this is "being knighted" and gets you the honorific of "Sir" (or "Dame" if female). I'm in the airport at the moment and web searches, which I shan't be doing, from my phone would be required to confirm. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2556 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, An OBE/MBE is an administrative award with the recipients usually being nominated by community organisations and government departments. The recipients are permitted to add MBE/OBE after their names. One of my cousins was awarded an MBE on her recent retirement from the UK Foreign Service having been permanently based in the UK Embassy in Thailand. A knighthood is usually conferred by the Sovereign by personal choice or by recommendation from the Prime Minister. The recipients are entitled to be addressed as "Sir" or "Dame". The nobility titles such as Lord, Duke, Baron etc [and the female equivalents where applicable] are either inherited by birth into a noble family or a personal lifetime appointment by the Sovereign [I do not know whether the Prime Minister can suggest appointments]. The Sovereign has a range of personal appointments at their sole discretion however I suspect such appointments may be mentioned beforehand to the Prime Minister as a courtesy however the Sovereign's wish will prevail unless there are circumstances of which the Sovereign is unaware [highly unlikely IMHO]. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1522 Registered: 4-2016 |
There are only a handful of Knights as we know in legends stories and/or knights of the realm so to speak. In St George's Chapel within the grounds of Windsor Castle, you can see the names and escutcheon of the only true Knights that are still living today. As David said they are inherited. Modern nights as Sir Paul Mcartney, Sir Elton John etc, are awards or titles given or recommended by heads of state etc and are just that, awards. Mostly given to people who don't deserve them, or just because there is nothing else/left to award these usually long serving people. They are not a title that can be passed down, and in my opinion for a lot of the recipients, not worth the paper they are written on. An OBE or MBE is a far more important award, given to people that are usually the unsung achievers and have devoted their lives to generally a single or multiple causes within their community or country. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1323 Registered: 9-2004 |
Belated birthday wishes to you Bill. Hope you had a drop of the good stuff and do keep enjoying life. BTW it seems I'm not far behind. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1596 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thank you so much all of you. I was going to reply privately but assumed the privilege of a 'mass' reply. The coterie of correspondents that use this service under the strict oversight of David Gore are very encouraging to an octogenarian. I started this 'hobby' when I was 14 having been incurably infected after sitting in a brand new 1950 Bentley owned by a family friend! School, Duntroon, unemployment and a lifetime in the Australian Public Service did not damage my enthusiasm. The celestial guides to my life experiences tossed in marriage, a large career move, kids and an overseas posting to North America; still the 'rash' itched! Returning to Australia I joined the Australian Club having been indoctrinated by the Chesapeake Region of the RROC of America during my posting. Then a dismantled Silver Dawn appeared locally and my downfall was set! The wife enrolled in a convent, the kids roamed the streets and the dogs went hunting. I also had to enlarge my garage. The car arrived and I realised that I was past selling my body, the pickings for burglaries were apparently poor and drugs were things pharmacists did things with. Nothwithstanding, I completely dismantled the car to the bare chassis and started by having that bit fully welded and bracketed to stop the inherent twisting and then started on the long road to driving the thing again! The whole exercise finished years later and produced a very nice car. Someday I should write an account. My greatest problem with the task was getting advice and information on parts and overhaul procedures. That trauma was continuous but alleviated by a small coterie of professionals who helped that Canberra idiot who wants to pull his car to pieces! All the above is probably the absolute maximum drain on the tolerance of consenting adults about my RR mechanical travails. But I took this opportunity, you people being a partially captive audience, to thank you for your efforts at fuelling other owners' curiosity and ambition to preserve these icons of yesteryear. | ||
| Patrick Francis Prolific User Username: jackpot Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Guys Whislt doing some research on ignition timing etc, it seems to me that the settings in "table 2" in the engine settings document which Geoff (W) mentioned in his Post Number: 769 (2015!) are back to front for the 1967 - 1976 cars for 97 RON. Should be as follows for STATIC and 800RPM: TDC-5DBTDC 99RON 5ATDC-TDC 97RON 7ATDC-2ATDC 94RON Then logically, the 5 degree difference between STATIC and 800RPM remains and just moves round the flywheel according to RON values. That is why there is an inexplicable jump from 99RON to 97RON in the original document. Clear as mud? | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1701 Registered: 5-2012 |
 I posted the table from the previous entry - it still makes no sense to me - lol. | ||
| Patrick Francis Prolific User Username: jackpot Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Geoff Thanks for doing that. Using a timing strobe light, and with the engine running at 800 rpm, timing should be: 99 RON 5 BTDC 97 RON TDC 94 RON 2 ATDC Retarding timing as RON values lower. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1334 Registered: 9-2004 |
I would like to know the date when that data was published. | ||
| John Beech Grand Master Username: jbeech Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2016 |
Tootsie, SRX6816 is a 1969 model and while her model year finds within the table, her serial number predates it. What's the source, Geoff? |
