| Author | Message | ||
     Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 894 Registered: 5-2015 |
Adequate was used by Crewe when asked how many horses. Today I got a lift in a Vauxhall Ventora which is a Victor with a 3.3 litre straight six. Vauxhall claim 140 BHP. At first sight one thinks of a faster Victor but really the bigger engine makes for effortless cruising where the about 2.0 litre 4 cylinder is more busy. The big engine is faster but I think the intention was not to make a faster car but a more effortless car. Vauxhall done this by using adequate power. 140 BHP isn't a lot for 3.3 litres but the bottom end grunt is good. A bit like a Shadow. The Shadow is about 200bhp @ 4500 rpm which means about 240 ft/ lbs @4500. Because it's a lazy engine the torque curve will be flat with a drop off starting at about 3500 rpm. Between 1500 rpm and 4500 rpm I guess an average of 250 ft/lbs. When Crewe say adequate they mean adequate BHP to make lots of torque. Well 250 was a lot not so large nowadays. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 433 Registered: 2-2013 |
Adequate ! Indeed Bob, I have always thought that the use of such an adjective was a nonsensical attempt to cover up the truth but also a sly way in which to induce an atmosphere of mystery to the marque. Would it not have been better for the Shadow to have had something like 500 bhp so that when investigative motoring journalists who I rank just slightly above politicians who I rank far below black sewer rats, investigated the Shadow that a figure of 500 bhp was discovered instead of a cold cup of boring tea 200 bhp? I say it was horribly boring to discover just how low powered the Shadow engine was. I don't like any of the new Rolls Royce range and consider the take over by VW and BMW of RR and B to be a form of automotive treason mixed with blasphemy from which limbs should have been severed and thrown. It is no longer an English car when it is not 100 percent English. Brezhnev himself would vomit into a bucket if he was around to see what happened to RR/B not to mention the rudeness of Putin being driven in a Mercedes. The world is now indeed a horrid place - we need to return to the past where true class and style existed. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 895 Registered: 5-2015 |
500 gee gees is a lot and pointless. At a guess to keep a Shadow at 60 mph requires 25 BHP. All guns blazing a Shadow will do the 0 to 60 mph in 10 seconds. Although 10secs sounds slow it isn't. We live in a world where people read the big figures, but when it actually comes to driving the car they rarely use all the power. One cannot drive around flat out smoking tyres it's dangerous. I have never actually driven my Shadow flat out so more power is pointless. All that will happen is the gas pedal won't be pressed so hard. Jeremy Clarkson on top gear drove this Bentley flat out and it shredded the trees and disappeared up its own exhaust in a cloud of tyre smoke. Pointless. The maths. If at 60 mph 25 BHP is required then at 120 mph 200 BHP is required. 8 times as much. This is because drag increases with the square of the speed and also the car is covering the same distance in half the time so is doing twice amount of work 2 x 2 x 2 = 8. Two cubed. Top speed of a Shadow is 120 mph. Plenty. The only public road one can go that speed is the German Autobann. Reading up on these roads I found that most times only 90 mph is possible due to traffic. Also high speed accidents are usually fatal. Biggest cause is tyres and unstable cars at high speed. The car gets up to 150 mph and a very slight bend causes the driver to lose control. The very last time I drove a car fast it started to wander at 110 mph I lifted off and the bugger drifted left, if it had drifted right I would have put the right hand wheels onto the central reservation and into the crash barrier. It's that easy. Imagine doing 100 mph for say one hour in a car like that. Many cars are like this, yes they will do 130 mph but the slightest problem and you are brown bread. Speed record attempts have killed a few. Parry Thomas in a car called Babs. The drive chain snapped (1920s) and took his head off. They buried the car in the sands at Pendine Beach Wales UK. Ok cars weren't that safe then. But as the top speed increases the safety goes down. The faster the car goes the more it weighs ---- when it comes to a sudden stop. Wales for non UK people is not in England it's a separate country and a principality with Prince Charles Prince of Wales as a figure head. The car Babs was dug up in the 1950s I hate some of the modern stuff. In Bournemouth we have a lot of Citreon Belingos vans with rear windows and seats. They look truly awful. I was tempted because of practicality but fortunately I stared at my Shadow and a very nice old Jag drove past and decided not to buy a Belingo. It all seemed to go wrong with the advent of body designs using AutoCAD. The E Type was designed by using a space frame and then hanging panels on the frame to see what it looked like. Eventual after many different shapes they came up with the E Type which IMO is the most beautiful sports car ever made. Sod off Ferrari with your over priced bodged body work. I say bodged because Ferrari would butt weld aluminium panels together then mill wheel the seam and cover with body filler to make it look nice. Seen a few Ferrari back to bare metal and seen the bodies. Worst maker for this was Panther. Filler used to correct shut lines. 1/4 inch thick plop. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 434 Registered: 2-2013 |
Bob your points are very well argued. However, I think there is a certain amount of excitement in doing what Jeremy Clarkson did with the Bentley. I have done the same in a 300 SEL 6.3 Mercedes. Its a nice feeling. Perhaps 500 horse power in over the top. There are plenty of places in Russia and Australia where a speed of 150 mph would be quite safe. There is as far as I know one stretch of the North Territory where there is no speed limit. Years ago there was no speed limit on most of the highway from Humpty Doo to Alice Springs but a Japanese Dentist with a Ferrari F40 croaked himself and his navigator and two race stewards in the Cannonball Run and that together with the predictable paranoia from the media enabled the politicians to nibble that little bit of freedom away. Bob there are places in Australia where there are no bends in the road for approximately 90 miles ie Nullabor Plane. In Russia there is a speed limit on the highways. When I was last there coming out of Moscow I was passed by a late model black Mercedes 600 which must have been doing close on 160 mph. A short time later I saw the driver having a friendly chat with a couple of police men - obviously a bribe was paid and everybody was happy. In states like Victoria and New South Wales billions are to be made for governments from fining the petty speeding and virtually declaring very high speed a crime almost equal to rape. I can remember a gentleman in the late 1960s getting done for "dangerous driving" as he was clocked at over 100mph in an E-type Jaguar and he successfully defended himself by arguing that a Jaguar was the type of car that was safe at that speed so he was not "dangerous driving" but he did go down on the lesser speeding fine. The police love to bang the drum very loudly about speeding. I have spent many a day in court and there is the prosecuting sergeant puffing his chest out like a blow fish and attempting to get the judge to be completely horrified by the speeding actions of a motorist. The police love drama - they thrive on it. Also the police love a bloody good car chase and who could blame them for that. Our nanny states of Australia lead the world in the propagandarising of the road safety caper. Never do you hear much criticism that the little Asian mircocars are killing people even though they have airbags. These things are total death traps - I will not ride in one -ever ! But there are the sacred cow of the Aussie car world where road safety has reached a level of propaganda that Stalin's "enemy of the people" stuntmen would have admired. It is true at a 100mph things can go horrible wrong quickly. But some people can't drive safely at 40 mph. I always watch out for nuns and our Oriental friends as neither of these lot appear to follow any road rules and are prone to wild changes of direction without warning. But my point is Bob, where a 1969 Cadillac comes out with 375 hp standard, a Rolls Royce should top that at least rather than avoid the issue but claiming "adequate". I think there is certainly a tinsy wincy little bit of English arrogance in the "adequate" caper. Perhaps Bob the best car in the world should have had an accelation and top speed better than Cadillac or Lincoln or Imperial or Mercedes - but it didn't did it? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 437 Registered: 2-2013 |
Bob I have to agree with you - the Jaguar E-type or XKE for our yanky doodle dandy friends was the most beautiful sports car ever made. My question is why has nobody made another fantastic design like this ? Naturally, you would have good manners to have your valet drive behind you in your RR/B Cloud series to scrape your meaty mess up when you wrapped the etype around an oak tree The car simply is purely pornographic in its sexuality and I have read that at over 130mph they could be most frightening with front end lift etc. Imagine that Bob in the sixties - you are a rock star - you are rich - you are on drugs - you have a prime piece of skirt next to you and you are thrashing your etype with the top down stereo blaring through the English forest on a winding road on your way to the next orgy or decadent drug and alcohol fest with Hendrix and Brian Jones waiting to be your morals officers. Now that was life - that was worth living. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 898 Registered: 5-2015 |
Rod Stewart, he of pop star fame. Had a Lamborghini Murria. He was hooning down a road in Monte Carlo and he clipped a bus coming the other way at speed. After that he realised he was mortal and doesn't drive flat out in Lamborghinis any more. So a car of lesser power will do. He still drives Lambos. From experience with working with the rozzers a lot of unexplained accidents of single vehicle types we reckoned was caused by loss of control at high speed. Even at 70mph at drift followed by a correction can cause loss of control. At a 100 mph concentration is essential for how ever long one is going that fast. No radio no passenger chatter. However I do think that 300 BHP for a Shadow would work well. Even 250 would make a huge difference. It depends how the extra is used I would use it to make the car even more effortless. How to get more BHP. Fit 4 barrel Holley with better inlet manifold 9:1 comp ratio. Long duration cam with a more sporty overlap. All easy but expensive to do. I think the heads flow well standard. The exhaust manifolds are a nightmare and to squash decent equal length headers is going to be Uber difficult. Red line engine at 5000 rpm and 250 BHP and 255 ft lbs. I used to go to the free hippy festival at Stone Henge in the 1970s. A band called Hawkwind used to play, their lead singer and bass player was Lemmy. The band sort of fell apart and became Motorhead. One year I went to see Motörhead at a venue I can't remember where they used a 135,000 watt sound system which was so loud and leaking radio signals that the local police couldn't use their radios. I used to hang around with a bunch of bikers curiously some of them were also mods on scooters, also one had a bubble car. One day we went to the Ace cafe on the North Circular road Neasden London. The Road Rats and the Windsor Chapter were also in attendance. One of the Road Rats wanted to turn the bubble car over but we told him that the owner was getting married and he needs the car for work. So instead the Rats decided on a stag do. That was some party. I see a connection with the moral police and unwanted diet advice from well meaning people about my Crohns Disease. Because I have to be carefull about my diet they assume that the diet there fore must be bland or horrible. The lastest advice is spinach smoothies. They are surprised when I eat a Cadburys cream egg. The trick is, is to only eat one a day with a nice cup of milky coffee and take my time consuming said nosh. I don't absorb calories very well so I use sweet things to keep weight on. That surprises them. The moral and fun police is a Victorian throw back. It came from the newly founded middle class prompted by the death of Prince Albert about 1860. The Royal Family at the time promoted the idea that the Royal Family was aligned with the people rather than the aristocracy. This turned into middle class and the upwardly mobile mimicked the Royal life style, the start of the consumer age. Once Albert popped off they went into mourning in sympathy with Queen Victoria. So any thing fun was seen as wrong. I think that when one dies it's the same as if one had never been born. Life is to short not to have fun. The crash regulations is what really done the E Type in. The faults with the E Type were gradually being solved as production continued. The V12s despite what some say where the best to drive but the shape wasn't as pure but still looked good. I have driven a few Es and found them very variable. I remember a blue V12 coupe that was very fast and sweet and a maroon one that was sluggish and hard work. Both less than 5 years old. The next stage which never happened would have been the HE V12. Instead Jag went the XJS route. Shame really. I do see cars that nice for what the car is meant to do. The Vauxhall mk 2 Chavelier is a nice looking car with bland dynamics. As a cheap family saloon it looks nice. Sports car wise the Mazda MX 5 lotus elan copy looks nice. Also quite a good sporting drive. Also the Ferrari 308 or 328 look good. Strange idea. An amphibious E type. It would look good floating in water up to the bumpers. Twin props of course. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 165 Registered: 4-2015 |
Gentlemen... My own experience with a 1968 XKE in college years was quite favorable. Bought it new so experienced it in perfect condition from the get-go. That was when there were no speed limits in Nevada outside of town limits. I found it to be very smooth and comfortable at 100 MPH. My recollection was that the engine at that RPM sounded like a electric fan motor humming along. The way they were geared in 1968, they topped out at 120 and I found that higher speed to be unpleasant, not from handling characteristics, but because the tachometer was redlined and keeping it at about 80% capacity had much less of the "frantic" sound to it. Almost 50 years later I still find that it visits me in my dreams at least weekly. Wish I could say the same for sex in my dreams...sigh... | ||
| michael vass Prolific User Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi All More power = slap on a turbo  . Speed is not dangerous in the right place, I think 40 in a 30 is dangerous but 90 in a 70 is not so. IMO Mike | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 900 Registered: 5-2015 |
True. 40 mph and rapid acceleration in a 30 mph limit is dangerous, more so than 90 in a 70. However one must consider mechanical failure, this is what scares me. Slapping on a turbo may seem simple but only in your dreams. For it to work properly things like cam shaft and Pistons will need mods. When the turbo is boosting it raises the compression ratio. So turbo charged engines need a lower off boost CR. Resulting in less power off boost. The Turbo R covers this by using low boost that appears early. The torque band is not that wide and there's only 1000 rpm to 4500 rpm to play with 3500 rpm to solve this a high gear is used to stretch the band. Mr Hansen's experience with E types is about par for the course ok up to 100 mph but frantic at faster speeds. The V 12 are OK to 120 mph. The intention of the designers is that the car although 125 mph 4.2 litre and 140 mph V12 wasn't meant to be driven at that speed, but at say 100 and 120 for easy cruising. Back to adequate and effortless. Besides flat out will bugger up a 4.2 engine after a few hours. The V12 is better but not immune. As I said I don't drive my shadow flat out so don't use all power so extra won't be used and therefore a waste of time and money getting extra power. Cheaper to buy a BMW M5 and scare yourself stupid. Cars like the M5 lure the driver into going to fast. Especially the cars with ride active handling electronics which flatter the drivers skill. Also other drivers like me who can't always judge the actual speed of cars coming towards them. It only needs a lunatic doing 60 in a 30 to hit cars pulling out of side roads. This causes drivers like me to hesitate at junctions and take a second look even though the car approaching is quite a ways off and at 30 mph wouldn't present a danger but at 60. I never used to do that but now nearly every car on the road has a top speed of over 100 mph so 60 mph is easy. Far far easier is to use nitrous oxide. Bearing in mind the 70 mph limit and that 70 mph is the same as 70 mph regardless of engine power. The nos is only used to accelerate the car not to maintain speed. A little known advantage with nitrous is that if wet nos is injected into the inlet manifold as it rapidly expands it cools the inlet charge thus more power. Basically the amount of nos and extra petrol ( or LPG or run LPG and petrol carbs together.) is preset for one setting to give a set amount of extra gee gees. Any where from 25 BHP to 400 BHP are common. In the Midlands UK is a Vauxhall Victor . 9 litre V8 nos and 2000 BHP. Road Legal. It did a 7 second 1/4 mile at Santa Pod on run what you drove to the raceway class. Now the owner spends most of his time improving handling and traction which is where the real big gains are to be made. I once had a ride in a Pontiac with 600 BHP and on full chat it pins you firmly to the seat and reels in the horizon. At rest it wheel spins but from say 20 mph it's very fast. The rear end was from an XJ6. The original live axle used to dance around under the car and wreak tyres and suspension bits. Also 4 mpg. A penalty for more power is that if you use it you will use more petrol. Although a turbo by using waste heat helps it doesn't save that much. Turbo R driven sensibly say a little faster than a non turbo car will do about the same MPG but get a bit more enthusiastic and the mpg will drop but you do have more fun and get there faster. If I wanted my Shadow to go faster a much better option is just buy a Turbo R with fuel injection it would be cheaper and guaranteed to go fast. Don't forget that taper and woodruff key for the drive shaft yoke, it's a weak spot. Never actually heard on one breaking but I am suspicious from engineering experience with tapers. The taper is what does the driving the key is really safety only, if the taper even slightly releases the key will shear. Seen it loads of times on motor bikes and machinery. Engineering glue is useful and best applied to even perfect tapers. | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Frequent User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2005 |
Quote: How to get more BHP. Uber difficult. The basic design of the Crewe V8 was/is quite resistant to extract more power, as the Works found out to their dismal. First step was to increase the cid from 6.25 to 6.75 quite early in the long, long life of this engine. Then they had to go the turbo route with the Bentley. RR even had to engage Cosworth (the racing engine specialists) to help extract some more oomph. So obviously RR was well aware of the lack of power from their V8. But as has been said, what is the use of 500 hp in todays road traffic situations? Only prestige! | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 915 Registered: 1-2008 |
Try this in almost any modern clonemobile: Get it up to 150ish and shred a rear tyre so hard that the steel plies rip up the inner and outer wheel arches. Now drive in a straight line while you gently brake to a halt in the emergency lane. No fuss, no bother, no need to change shreddies. Jaguar XJS rules! | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 905 Registered: 5-2015 |
70 mph Mercedes W122 220D. M3 motor way offside front tyre blew. The car carried on straight and I simply pulled over to the hard shoulder no fuss no bother. If that had been a Ford Granada it would have ended upside down spinning around on its roof. I thought at first the true had just gone down a bit, but when I stopped the tyre was near off the rim. Michelin XVS tyre. Often people say the have had an accident at 40 mph when in truth after the panic braking they actually hit at say 15 mph. So when people see cars with serious damage they think the car was going much faster. The safety stars won't save you if you are going fast, hit something at 100 mph and any car is going to fold. One reason for the capacity increase of the engine was to offset the losses caused by emission control. Maybe another was because all cars were now having AC as standard. The SRH and SBH cars benefitted the most because we got 9:1 compression ratio engines. Which BTW helps much with LPG because LPG likes higher CR. I do like the Jag rear suspension. It's easy to remove the whole lot as a unit and it also works rather well. Damper changes in situ are a breeze, 30 mins at side. IMO the XJS is at the moment at bargain on the classic car market. Also the six cylinder versions are better than some think. They are not quite as fast as the V12 but still good enough or adequate. Mpg better. The sixes go much cheaper than the 12. Of course it will never be worth as much as a 12 but one didn't pay as much and the six is cheaper to run so even stevens. Some say that the six handles better. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 194 Registered: 3-2012 |
Beautiful car Bob, if I ever sell the old Rolls I'd like an old early 70'st Mercedes. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 911 Registered: 5-2015 |
1965 s class coupe. Stacked bumpers and head lights. The W123 is a better car than W122. Best one is the 230 petrol. The diesels are desperately slow. The 5 cylinder 3 litre diesel goes Ok but not that good on fuel almost the same as a 230 petrol. The 280 petrol is the fastest. Big big problem is rust. First merc estate was the W123. | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 472 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Robert I have a 1998 280SL no cats goes like hell love it. Richard. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 913 Registered: 5-2015 |
The real bargin of the merc range is the W124 especially the estate. The 350SL is quite good, however they can be variable on performance. Last one I drove was quite fast and smooth, the gear change auto box can be detected. The 280 is a nice engine and being a straight six smoother than the V8. After the W124 the accountants ruined the quality. 2000 to 2010 are not as good. I somehow have a nose for quality or lack of it. I see a cast aluminium rocker cover and think quality and then I se a stamped out sheet steel one and think lack of quality. I had a 1959 Rover P4 100 2625 cc straight six. The under bonnet quality looks as good as Rolls-Royce. Which is why I rate the older Rovers. The rot set in with the introduction of the Rover V8. Rover should have carried on with a Straight six say a 4 litre version of their 3 litre jobbie. But money constraints meant they needed a quick cheap fix and brought the Buick design. Rover actually had a choice of another V8 which was 40% more powerful for the same capacity. Still a lot of people really rate the Rover V8. The metropolitan police London tested the SD1 with both a V8 and a 2.6 straight six. The outcome was that both cars had similar performance but the 2600 was better to drive and rev happy. The met used both engines in service. The quality of the older mercs is as good as RR and Rover apart from rusty body shells but both a Rover and RR are not so bad. | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 474 Registered: 4-2012 |
Robert the 280 SL I have is the V 6 face lift model I am sure there is a difference. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 915 Registered: 5-2015 |
Yes big difference. | ||
| michael vass Prolific User Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 108 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi All Don't tell me mercs are good they are cheap rusty chrysler TAT, I know I had one cost me a bl00dy fortune in dealer bills with rubbish electronics NEVER again Mike | ||
| Bob Reynolds Grand Master Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 370 Registered: 8-2012 |
I didn't know they were cheap.  | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 559 Registered: 4-2009 |
For some reason Mercedes cars are overpriced in every category and every era. That is why I have had very few Mercedes cars. The last two Mercedes cars I owned were a 107 500SL and a 300SEL 6.3. Both really amazing cars. I loved owning them. But were they worth the money - no. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Prolific User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 152 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Bob, What was the other V8 Rover had the option of? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 443 Registered: 2-2013 |
Michael interested to know what model Mercedes you had such strife with. | ||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 237 Registered: 10-2010 |
I owned several W126 SELs and an R107 SL that I was quite happy with. Bought them all used, so the prices weren't horrific. I did have a nightmare with the 420SEL's climate control system -- but that could easily happen with an SY/SZ too (although the SY/SZ would be somewhat easier to disassemble/work on). Cheers, Jeff. | ||
| michael vass Prolific User Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi Vladimir It was a 2003 c200 w203 , there was always some annoying problem , fix one thing then another you know. Like airbag warning light , caused by cheap connectors under carpet slightest bit of damp ,back to dealer another £200 ,mot fails on silly things another dealer trip for ecu reset GGrrrr Bentleys are much better cars Mike | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 921 Registered: 5-2015 |
The other engine was designed by another devision of GM. I think it was Chevrolet. The Rover being a Buick. The Chevy engine was about the same dimensions and capacity. It was in prototype only but tooling had been designed. The Buick engine got the reputation of being a boat anchor in the USA. Despite the Rover V8 fans trust in this engine, the Rover engine if driven hard tends to wear it's self out quite quickly. Fortunately for Rover buyers of their cars tended not to be the thrashy type and the sports cars didn't do the miles. However when the engine was fitted to ambulances the engine barely lasted 60k miles. The symptoms were blue smoke, down on power and noise. The rings, the camshaft and followers, and crank brgs. I have driven a few Rover V8s which were down on power. The Mercs that I am referring too are the 1960s to 1980s. Apart from rust these are good cars. They are also simple cars. The electrics for instance are better than Lucas stuff. The Crysler Mercs are like my Crysler Jeep Cherokee, badly made with dodgy electrics. The mechanical bits seem ok it's just the rest. I wouldn't buy a newer Mercedes because the old ones are better but watch out for rust and dodgy rust repairs. Modern cars have become less than reliable, even Volvo cars have become average reliability. A good old 240 will go forever with a bit servicing. A new Volvo won't. Modern cars are much better rust wise and it's a shame they don't combine this with the older reliable technology. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 289 Registered: 10-2008 |
Had a 280e, 380se 15 years ago, and my son has a 280ce and a 190e now. All fabulous cars, and we have had very few rust issues despite the age of the cars and their daily use. The 190e has over 250k miles on the clock ! Sorry Bob, my 240 Volvo back in 1985, was only marginally more reliable than the Alfa 164 that followed it. Volvo, , 100k miles, from new and on its 3rd gearbox when I sold it at 3 years old ! Mark | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 444 Registered: 2-2013 |
Thanks Michael. The reason I ask is I notice that nineties Mercedes like 600 SEL and 600 SL are up for sale in oz for very Low dollars compared to initial cost which was astronomical so I wondered what the hitch was. I have been thinking about a 600SL or even a 70s to 80s 350SL to 560SL. Evidently these little convertibles came out with 5sp manual boxes but I have never seen one. What would be snappy would be one with a 6.3 V8 matched to a 5 speed manual box. Certainly a 300 SEL was a missile in the 70s. The 6,9 was not snappy like the 6.3 and the 3.5 was a pussy compared to the 6.3. Bob says these were simple cars but in 1972 they were anything but simple. I worked at a large MB Dealership then and none of these cars were easy to repair then. Up to 1985 or so when RR/B went down the computerised fuel injection path RR/B was simple but quirky with especially a brake system that was out there. If RR/B installed a 472/500 Cadillac engine with a Turbo 400 auto and just normal brakes I think more Shadows would have been around today. Just try finding a 70s RR/B with full documented service history in good condition - good task for successful unicorn hunters I think. | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 923 Registered: 5-2015 |
I found that merc had their little foibles when repairing them but nothing that a competent mechanic can't cope with. There is always an exception to the rule and have seen many Volvos that have passed the 150 k miles mark with no major repairs such as gearboxes. The 240 also had little foibles such as the cam shaft feed blocking up and breaking the cam belt. The engine isn't an interference engine so it does not do any damage. The repair method I used was take the second right hand cylinder head bolt out. The oil travels up the side of the bolt. Clean out gunk and crap. Refit bolt. Hand scrap the seize marks off the cam shaft bearings. Refit cam fit new belt. And engine runs fine for another 100k miles. Volvo fit new head instead. I think that if RR had fitted vacuum brakes then maybe more of the cars would still be around. The average new car buyer would be thinking more about the engine than the brakes and the unknowing ones probably new nothing of the brake type and it goes and it stops. The used RR buyer would have been more aware. This leads to a problem because they assume that because someone in the press who knows sod all about brakes has said the system is complicated and prone to failure. Not realising that the average modern car with abs is just as complicated. They panic when they don't understand the system and think that a circuit diagram needs a degree in hybollock engineering to understand it. To me it's simples. The 500 Cadillac engine is a fine engine but not for RR. New car Buyers expect to have a RR engine. Buyers new will have heard nothing of any problems. Given that most new RRs are sold on in 5 years. The new car buyer is not going to have an engine or brake problem so he thinks what a wonderful car and buys another. RR only sold new cars and therefore second hand customers are not really an issue. Note that the idea of American iron in a British car is a well trodden route. Jensen for instant. The Interceptor and CV8 were two very good cars that should have sold more than they did. The Chysler engine was fine but buyers saw them as not truly British. The Jensens coupes could have been a competitor to the RR two door cars. But we Brits really only had straight sixes to play with. Despite a Straight a straight six being smoother than a V8 buyers will always think the more cylinders the better so therefore 8 is better than six. A 4.5 litre straight six in an interceptor would have worked. The engines used were not particularly powerful. At a guess 250 BHP. Which is 4.5 straight six territory. At the time there was a Daimler Majestic Major V8 4.5 which was quite powerful. The engine was unsuitable for mass production so Jag dropped the engine. But before jag drop the engine they fitted one to a 420. The results were good. But the V12 was under way. The smaller version was the 2.5 litre. Both designed by Edward Turner who designed the Truimph speed twin. Turner had good ideas that often didn't quite work properly. The other designers used to redesign the ideas. This is why the V8 were dropped by Jag because they were so expensive to make. Apart from the outside dimensions for a vehicle point of view the straight six is all that is needed. Hence large capacity S6 diesels fitted to trucks. Next step up is a V12 this has the ability to be 10 litres with out being to big to fit in a reasonable large car. Car makers try to make stuff that buyers want if they want V8s then V8s they get. One could spend loads on educating the car buyer into what is engineerly best, but they won't except that V8s are a compromise. B So why do I have a V8. Because RR didn't fit a six. I wish they had. Not the 4.9 unit but an entirely new design. SOHC arrangement. But the biggest customer the USA wanted a V8. Even better would have been a V12 7 litre jobbie. There's quite a few pro mechanics who don't know. One mechanic told me that brake fuild is corrosive to iron stuff. He came to this conclusion because it's strips paint. He was serious. Disk brakes are always better than drum brakes, yeah right, ignore static braking effiency. I have heard some gems. Silver Shadows are getting thin on the ground especially Shadow 1s which are getting a following due to extra chrome. The T1 is now rare. The prices have not followed though and are still at bargin prices. A full history car does turn up from time to time and command high prices, cars have been sold upwards of £15 k and much more for rag tops and two door cars. The Bentleys even more. The history could be one careful owner and the last 15 were lunatics. Also expecting to find original paint work is not going to happen. Never seen an old RR with original paint in the flesh only photos. The photos were not good. In flesh it would be worse. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 919 Registered: 1-2008 |
What you are forgetting, Robert, is that the Buick engines were being scrapped and they were bought for scrap value only. As stocks dried up the licence to build them in the UK was purchased followed shortly by all rights to it. Yes, they weren't as reliable as they could have been, but the design was modified by adding more strengthening webbing to the bottom end that stiffened up the whole block. With another main bearing or two thrown into the mix the lump was less liable to permit the crankshaft to wander in the wrong plane, putting less strain on all the shell bearings. By the time the whole project was dumped the swept volume had grown by around 50% and the hp/torque figures more than doubled without compromising the vastly improved relibility and longevity. Had Triumph used it in the ill fated Stag there could be hundreds more still on the road today. Unfortunately hubris got in the way and the Gods took their usual toll on the marque. The Ford Essex lump, when fitted into the early Reliant Scimitars, had much the same problems with staying cool at significant velocities. And don't talk to me about the Rover 'K' series engines! | ||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 924 Registered: 5-2015 |
Ah yes the award winning K series that blow head gaskets at 50 k miles. Much was made of the long bolt design, just like a Shadow engine. The engines went well though for the size. I quite liked the first Honda Rover 214s the 216 was much better though but rarer. I have fitted a few cams to Rover V8s. The owners are often surprised of how much power they had been missing. Std 160 BHP 3.5 litre. Often a low mileage engine 140 BHP and the high miles 100 BHP and struggle to 80 mph. The cooling problem with some of the Scimitars was caused by a fixed fan that when the car was at speed the fan restricted the air flow. Vicious or electric fans solved the problem. Also the water pump is specific to the Ford V6 Scitmar only engine. Naturally owners when shopping for water pumps selected the cheaper Ford Granada one. Wrong pump. Which is why one must be carefull about alternative parts. Cavitation was the problem so the Scimitar has a different pulley size and impeller. Best is viscous coupling works better than electric fan and is more efficient. I recommend also a bigger radiator. The Scimitar is quite a nice hatch back coupe. I wouldn't say no. The trim is appalling and quick wear but it's simple to retrim using a kit of far better quality. The engines are quite strong and gusty. The automatics are quite good. Hold in 2 nd and the car goes well up to about 60 mph. So good around the lanes. The steering and brakes are trumpet car based. Also the 3 litre Capri is in a similar vein and also desired by me and many others. However the 2 litre version of the Capri is almost as fast and doesn't have sudden acute under steer followed by over steer and back wards into a ditch. A Capri fitted with 2 litre Mundane engine is not unknown. Trim for Capris is unavailable and expensive to remanufacture. Most get custom interiors because of this. The Snag with the Stag was that: The water pump is high on the engine so any water loss means pump no longer pumps. The head bolts are not perpendicular to the block face. This causes side ways load and movement as block warms up. Also difficult to get heads off because of this. The cam chain is single row and not strong enough. They can break and the valves hit. The chain should be changed every 22k miles. What !!! . 100k miles is the norm. The instructions to service engineers didn't mention anti freeze. The engineers were more had to iron and rusty water. The engine was never actually ran on a test bed for a 1000 hours which is the industry std. The Rover V8 was a choice but Rover couldn't make enough engines. Rover P5b and P6b and Range Rover and MGV8 all wanted engines. And there was a bit of competition between designers from each brand. However if the 2.5 straight six had been fitted to give time to sort the Trumpet V8 out then the story might have had a better ending. The competitor for the Snag was the Merc 220SL. merc released the six cylinder version before the 350SL V8 and got away with it in the USA. Maybe if Truimph had designed a bigger six say 3.5 litres and 175 BHP like a Jag 3.4. But the USA expects V8s. Now there's a thought a Stag with a XK engine. The Volvo 164 has a nice 3 litre straight six. The k jet Tronic one is 175 BHP. Shame they never made an estate version officially they didn't but they are two or three. The 165 estate would have made a nice base for a Bentley rised estate car. Bung a RR V8, gear box and better rear suspension in and shovel lots of leather and walnut burr in topped off with Wilton and finally fit a Bentley grill. Actually the Volvo rear end rides quite well but a live axle is a bit down market. |
