| Author | Message | ||||
     Bill Coburn Prolific User Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2003 |
Has anyone found this stuff on the shelf yet? I recently bought a box of the old stuff as I baulked at $24 a litre for the new stuff from the local dealer as against under $12 a litre for the old from the local Castrol depot. (It was someone else's car). I suspect 'they' are going to clear their stocks of old stuff before selling the new. Incidentally if I was clever enough to put a picture on this site you could see the difference in labelling. The new fluid has a full yellow label with black printing and a new Castrol logo in the top left hand corner. The old stuff has a white band at the top of the label with black printing and no logo. | ||||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2003 |
Bill; Are you saying you saw the new RR 363? Would really like to know as Steve Weaver at Crewe swore to me that there was no change coming to 363, this was on 10.16.03. Puzzled Bill | ||||
| Bill Coburn Prolific User Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2003 |
bill I have emailed pictures of the old and new. I can't say categorically that the new one is new but with all the other evidence one would wonder. I failed to mention that the 'new' stuff is definitely 'yellower' than the old. I got the bottles from our Sydney agent who import it from the Factory as Castrol let them down once and they ain't taking any more risks. Cheers | ||||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thank you Bill! I guess I have to have a few words with Steve Weaver next week. Regards | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 161 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, Good luck with Steve Weaver however I doubt if you will hear anything new - due to legal problems, especially in the USA, I doubt if Crewe Parts and Castrol will ever confirm a change has taken place. Bill Coburns comment about the colour is interesting as the pale colour of the previous product was the first indication that something had changed. | ||||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hello Everyone Any reasonably competent laboratory can do a full chemical analysis of old RR 363 and new RR 363, testing cost should be under $3000.00 USD for the most thorough report possible. Any member with the funds and samples can do this. I will find time to locate labs that can do the testing. Crewe and Castrol legal departments would be idiots or loons to discuss the issue while litigation is in progress. whunter RROC, Lake Michigan, Motor and Ohio region. ASE Master Mechanic Bloomfield Eurotech 45671 Woodward Avenue Pontiac, MI 48341 Work Phone 248-334-6400 Fax 248-334-2363 asemastermechanic@juno.com | ||||
| John D Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.180 |
The foregoing may in part, explain my unwillingness to publish the results of a chemical analysis of RR-363. That aside, hands up those who are aware that the introduction, and retail sale/availability of "363" (in the first instance) FOLLOWED the release of the first Bentley "T" (Silver/Gray) and S/Shadow (Red) late in 1965. HHhhmmm...I wonder what the factory used and "specified" in the intervening period?. NO..you dont deserve a prize for providing the answer (obvious as it is) but if you insist, then perhaps a suitable quantity of proprietory branded "Dot 4" brake fluid (as used in my own Shadow for the past 8 years) would not be inappropriate. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||||
| John Dare Prolific User Username: jgdare Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2004 |
If you think RR-363 is expensive, consider an unopened 4" high bottle of "Meccano" (a fine British symbol of engineering)lubricating oil (circa 1939) currently on e'bay at 62 pounds stg. and still below the reserve. If I thought I could live for another 66 years, some 363 might be a good investment as the few Shadows/Spirits which may have survived will probably be in the museums. What about an investment Bill C, for the recently arrived Millicent who I note was born December 11th, a most auspicious month/day, for that is when "Yours Truly" also arrived, albeit in days of yore.  | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 |
Another try... Ok, came across this one once again. I would just buy the damn RR363 of the shelf if it was available - but it is not in Finland! Castrol here are happy to deliver a minimum order of some 200 liters...!!! That's service for you!!! Of course one can order it from abroad, but that's not the issue here. Why make things difficult? We're talking about brake fluid here, not space technology? Eh? See the attached pic of RR service manual: it clearly says for topping up Hydraulic System Reservoir (Brakes and Height Control): Fluid Grade: Girling-Castrol Brake Fluid Amber S.A.E.70 R3. Full Stop. Many of us will probably know that SAE is a French (approved) standard originally. Hmm... One soon thinks of Citroën... Taking the chance of being a total nutter, may I ask if this fluid is only for early Shadows? Or what is it excatly? In the swinging 60's and early 70's RR363 was not available (I think)? I will stand corrected, and most of all, will be pleased to be informed on this one. Dirty Harry  | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 400 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Harry, Castrol Amber was the original fluid and was replaced by RR363 - I suspect it may have been a DOT3 variant and the RR363 was an upgrade to get around service problems [my guess noise & wear] caused by the Amber fluid. I have seen documentation from New Zealand from around this time saying DOT3 was an alternative HOWEVER this has been superseded by later directives saying DOT3 is not suitable and RR363 is the only recommended fluid The term SAE refers the to Society of Automotive Engineers based in the USA who have a comprehensive set of standards for most things relating the the automotive industry - I am not aware of a French connection in this regard. In the absence of more informative information this is the best we can do. | ||||
| Gordon Norris New User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2005 |
David and Harry, I recall reading somewhere an analysis of RR363 by Pentosin labs (they make the LHS2 hydraulic fluid for Citroen DS series) and from memory RR363 turned out to be the same as "ordinary" DOT3 brake fluid, and they deemed it an UNSUITABLE substitute for Citroen hydraulic systems in the DS series. I've probably just confused the issue further and I apologise for not being able to quote the exact source, but usually my memory serves me well. This may however provide a lead for further research via Google, etc. Cheers, GN. | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 403 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Gordon, I have a copy of the Pentosin report which discloses the lubrication properties of RR363 v LHS2 measured by viscosity tests as below: Viscosity 40degC: 8.59[RR363] 14.5/16.5[LHS2] Viscosity 100deg C: 2.38[RR363] 4.5/5.0 [LHS2] Units: mm^2/s The conclusion was RR363 did have as much lubrication additive as LHS2 and accordingly was unsuitable for Citroen cars as a replacement for LHS2. Unfortunately, Pentosin did not report test results on straight DOT3/Dot4 fluids for comparative purposes however their promotional material included a reference in Swedish "straight talk":- "It is a misunderstanding that the Castrol 363 should be better than any of the ordinary DOT3/4 brake fluids - det ar samma skit" [You do not have to be Swedish to translate this into English!!] I would not give this claim too much weight as it sounds more like the Marketing Dept and not enough like the Technical Dept in Pentosin. | ||||
| Gordon Norris Experienced User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi David, What you have sounds familiar, but I'm pretty sure the report I saw had more detail than just the viscosity ratings. In any case, your last sentence probably nails it as a marketing department trying to discredit a competitors product. GN. PS: Go on! Translate the swedish...  Moderators Translation  "It is the same sh*t" (Message edited by david_gore on March 06, 2005) | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi David & Gordon, Thanks for your responses. This is all very interesting, as all things in the past. Many say we should learn from it... Sorry, a mistake from me, SAE is of course, born in USA. Somewhy I remembered the "S" being short for "Sosietè" (French) -not Sosiety. Anyway, David, do you have any idea when the SAE70 R3 (is it the same as DOT3?) was actually superseded? I was also wondering if you did have a wording mistake in your post: " Viscosity 40degC: 8.59[RR363] 14.5/16.5[LHS2] Viscosity 100deg C: 2.38[RR363] 4.5/5.0 [LHS2] Units: mm^2/s The conclusion was RR363 did have as much lubrication additive as LHS2 and accordingly was unsuitable for Citroen cars as a replacement for LHS2." -- To me the figures for LHS2 are almost doubled...? It would be most interesting to see the whole report! I don't actually believe that DOT3 would be "the same sh*t" as RR363 - why on heavens' sake would the Crewe people (or was it Castrol?) had gone thru all the hassle of creating such a "special" product? But what were they really replacing? DOT3 or the older SAE70 R3? Maybe it was just typical over-engineering from them? (I.E. Playing safe after things had once gone wrong..). Also, it is hard for me to believe that "they" (whoever it was) would have spent millions in making RR363 - it would never had paid itself off. So, as the lubrication problem arouse, "they" most probably just poured the some lubrication addtive in. Alas. A few questions remain to me: a) what is the lubricative additive in RR363, and how much is that in RR363? b) is SAE70 R3 Amber the same stuff that DOT3? (May seem a stupid Q at first, but when did it actually change over?) If I read right the Pentosin quotes, they were DOT3/4 vs. LHS2 - NOT vs. SAE70 R3 vs. LHS2 - if you get my point. c) DOT4 is clearly something different than that original R3. Many people (whom I think one can truly rely on) say that DOT4 is safe for using in Shadows, at least temporarily. Some other say it's the most stupid thing one can do. Now, knowing how much the chemimical industry and oils, for example, have developed during the past decades, it would seem strange that all DOT4's (and 3's) are alike: they must pass certain standards; but who says they don't have differences? My point is, one should know what one is looking for in a brake fluid. The lubricating agent (oil?) may be there in your DOT4 (or3) brand, or may not. d) Why is Castrol so secretive about this stuff? Usually, these kinds of things are not very good for business (low volumes), and information is freely given to "pass on the problem" to customers who can, then, make their own mixes at their own expences (as did happen in the EU with lead and the wearing out valve seats). However, if the mix is such that it really makes some bucks for Castrol, the situation is different. If so, it could indicate that it is cheap to produce in relation to volumies? e) It would be really interesting to know how the brake fluid type name "RR363" has evolved. What do the letters and numbers actually mean? I first thought "RR" was the obvious, but now I'm not so sure as the letter "R" came across with that SAE70 R3 - which in turn was NOT only a brake fluid for RR's. And the numbers? 3 - is it }DOT3 before it became DOT? If so, what does the remaining "...63" stand for / where does it come from? Could this have the key into the formula of it? Someone, somewhere knows it. Let's see what we can find out! DH | ||||
| Gordon Norris Experienced User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2005 |
Harry, If I were to guess, I'd say "RR" =the obvious, "3"=DOT3, and "63"=the year of first formulation/project date ie/1963 (first on sale about 1965 I think.) All just speculation though. Good luck in finding out more. You're right though, more info should be made available by the manufacturers. GN. | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 336 Registered: 9-2004 |
A trip to the attic is needed. Will do as soon as possible.  | ||||
| John Dare Grand Master Username: jgdare Post Number: 214 Registered: 12-2004 |
I've got an old tin rather like the big one in the centre pic. above. Last time I looked, I think it displayed words which read.. "suitable for all R-R/B vehicles requiring conventional Dot 3/4 fluids". I assume they meant the Dot 3/4 fluids of the type that hundreds of Shadow owners have used for years and years without any problems. | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 405 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Harry, My apologies for the delay in responding but I have been away for a few days in the "Big Smoke" [Sydney for our international readers] for deep consultation with my legal advisors. You are correct about the typo - "The conclusion was RR363 did have as much lubrication additive as LHS2 and accordingly was unsuitable for Citroen cars as a replacement for LHS2" should read: "The conclusion was RR363 did NOT have as much lubrication additive as LHS2 and accordingly was unsuitable for Citroen cars as a replacement for LHS2" Unfortunately, what I have posted is all the technical content that was in the material from Pentosin. | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 349 Registered: 9-2004 |
Well i thought i had the answers but now i am confused,it was always my belief that castrol amber R3 and castrol RR363 all had the same lubricating propertys. It was my belief that the diference was in the viscosity temp range between the Castrol R3 RR363.vegetable synthetic. This was because of different make up of tollerances on the moveing metal to metal parts between the years of the products. Regarding the the logo on some cans of RR363, "suitable for all RR/B requiring DOT [Vegetable] 3/4 fluid", this was put on for the thickies at the time of the introduction of LHM [mineral] fluid so the incorrect filling should not take place. I can only warn against not useing the RR363 in the system due to the lubrication and viscosity range stated above if i am correct. The LHS2 Citroen is another story to do with "o" rings more lubrication [Power Rack] and again the working different tollerances within the different heat range. Correct me if i am wrong. Out of intrest the DOT2 was dicontinued in the drum brakes when the rubber seals became obsolete in new cars about 1968/9. | ||||
| danibilal Unregistered guest Posted From: 80.58.4.170 |
Wold be nice if someone who has the 2 different bottles could post them (as pictures) here to see!! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 609 Registered: 4-2003 |
Miguel (danibilal), If you subscribe to Tee One Topics you will see detailed articles on RR363, including pictures of the bottles. | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 610 Registered: 4-2003 |
Look at it this way. Advising people to downgrade a safety-related part of a vehicle is asking for trouble, especially when you have no evidence to support your pious advice. Castrol would have given up on this loss-making fluid decades ago if they could. Fortunately Castrol did not walk away, otherwise Silver Shadow owners would have been forced to take additional risks. Dammit, the stuff's cheap anyhow. Those with the real formulas all stick to their guns and will only recommend RR363 until there is a viable alternatives. Those who swich to other fluids are flying blind. As for confidentiality: ding-a-ling gong. | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi, I did it again. I've been in contact with Castrol Finland today. It seems that they don't import the stuff, but that's yet to be confirmed (although I know that's the case since I've not been able to source it anywhere here) by them. Their Finnish HQ rep hadn't even heard of RR363... I had to send him a net link so he would believe there is a such a product. So I'm not too impressed by them guys. They promised get back with information how to get hold of the stuff. Let's see how it developes. What annoys me most is the fact that Castrol actually have monopoly with this stuff and they refuse to deliver it in my home country, which is EU territory. Why on earth is it so hard to deliver it? Consumer-wise that's very, very bad service. Of course, I will probably have to give up eventually. But, before I do, I'll demand some answers from Castrol (Finland). I'll let you know how it goes. DH | ||||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 352 Registered: 4-2003 |
Harry where is Castrol HQ - World that is.Let's have an address and we will give a burst. | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi, Found this: "Our global headquarters for R&D, which also co-ordinates the work carried out in our Technical Centres of Excellence across the globe, including the USA, Germany and India, is located in Pangbourne, UK." Also, Castrol proudly states on their site: "We also have agreements with many other leading automotive manufacturers, at a country or regional level. For more information on these, visit your local country Castrol web site, or contact your local Castrol office." One would easily imagine that this should apply to RR as well, especially with the da** 363. Upon contact with Castrol Finland, however, it's a seems to be a NO-GO. I'm still waiting for their response. DH | ||||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 59 Registered: 2-2005 |
David, Richard, Bill, Harry, and others, Castrol RR363 technical data sheet is available at the UK Castrol site at this link: http://129.35.64.91/bpglis/lubtds.nsf/technicaldata/1E47A7DC647B628B80256C4E005B8146?OpenDocument Text version also follows. NOTE:UK Help line and ADDRESS is at the end of the fine print. Some of the mystery is solved: looks like it's DOT3 blended with Castrols original magic ingredient for which they are famous and named after..castor oil!! Hope this helps, GN. _______________________________________________________________________ RR ________________________________________________________________________________ Rolls Royce Hydraulic Fluid DESCRIPTION Castrol RR363 Central System Hydraulic Fluid is a conventional synthetic brake fluid blended with castor for added lubricity. It is fully approved by Rolls Royce for use in their hydraulic systems fitted to earlier models. The use of this fluid was phased out in about 1980, vehicles using this fluid have a metal reservoir. It is also suitable for use in place of Castrol LHS2 in pre-1966 Citroen models fitted with a black reservoir. PERFORMANCE FMVSS 116 DOT 3 SAE J 1703 ISO 4925 TYPICAL CHARACTERISTICS Colour Yellow Density at 20°C, g/cm³ 1.030 Dry Boiling Point, °C 260 min Viscosity at -40°C, cSt 1290 pH 10.0 Girling Freudenberg Rubber Test, % 9 ________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ Health, Safety and Environment; Health, Safety and Environment Health, safety and environmental information is provided for this product in the Materials Safety Data Sheet. This gives details of potential hazards, precautions and First Aid measures, together with environmental effects and disposal of used products. ; Health, safety and environmental information is provided for this product in the Materials Safety Data Sheet. This gives details of potential hazards, precautions and First Aid measures, together with environmental effects and disposal of used products. Castrol (UK) Ltd. or its subsidiaries will not accept liability if the product is used other than in the manner or with the precautions or for the purpose/s specified. Before the product is used other than as directed, advice should be obtained from the local Castrol office.; Castrol (UK) Ltd. or its subsidiaries will not accept liability if the product is used other than in the manner or with the precautions or for the purpose/s specified. Before the product is used other than as directed, advice should be obtained from the local Castrol office. ________________________________________________________________________________ Typical Characteristics ; Typical Characteristics ________________________________________________________________________________ Test Methods; Test MethodsUnits; UnitsValue: ; Value: ________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ The above figures are typical of those obtained with normal production tolerance and do not constitute a specification.; The above figures are typical of those obtained with normal production tolerance and do not constitute a specification. This Data sheet and information it contains is considered to be accurate at the date of printing. No warranty or representation, expressed or implied, is made as to the accuracy or completeness of the data and information contained in this publication.; This Data sheet and information it contains is considered to be accurate at the date of printing. No warranty or representation, expressed or implied, is made as to the accuracy or completeness of the data and information contained in this publication. It is the User's obligation to evaluate and use products safely and within the scope advised in the data sheet and to comply with all applicable laws and regulations. No statement made in this publication shall be construed as a permission, recommendation or authorisation given or implied to practice any patented invention without a valid licence.; It is the User's obligation to evaluate and use products safely and within the scope advised in the data sheet and to comply with all applicable laws and regulations. No statement made in this publication shall be construed as a permission, recommendation or authorisation given or implied to practice any patented invention without a valid licence. The Seller shall not be responsible for any loss or damage resulting from any hazards or risks identified in the data sheet and which are associated with petroleum products concerned (provided that this disclaimer shall not affect any statutory rights of the Buyer of the petroleum products concerned).; The Seller shall not be responsible for any loss or damage resulting from any hazards or risks identified in the data sheet and which are associated with petroleum products concerned (provided that this disclaimer shall not affect any statutory rights of the Buyer of the petroleum products concerned). Castrol (UK) Ltd Witan Gate House Lubricants Helpline: 01908 853133 500/600 Witan Gate MILTON KEYNES MK9 1ES; Castrol (UK) Ltd Witan Gate House Lubricants Helpline: 01908 853133 500/600 Witan Gate MILTON KEYNES MK9 1ES ________________________________________________________________________________ Date Created: 10/10/2002 Last Modified:02/02/2005 | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you Gordon!! The link you gave all us is just elocuent. Its finally clearifies about it. Just one question: who would the FIRST using this mixture in his/her car? I am tempted to do, but a bit afraid also...I do not know how would feel this to my SRH3430. Also... this linnk is not from UK. is a BP France extranet...: http://129.35.64.91/ and i now this is in France because this: http://www.ripe.net/fcgi-bin/whois?form_type=simple&full_query_string=&searchtext=129.35.64.91&submit.x=12&submit.y=5 Sorry all for this comment... | ||||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2005 |
Glad to be of help Miguel. It just took a bit of manual searching, which I find often works when search engines fail for some reason. I think you should feel completely confident about using this in your car, and I think it finally clarifies and puts to bed the issue about NOT using ordinary DOT3/4 fluid as they do not have the added lubricant obviously needed for the RR systems. And you're right, the link is in France, but was accessed from the UK site. Castrol obviously has it's data scattered about.. Kind regards, GN. | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi, I've just received some very disturbing news from Castrol Finland. What I already suspected, RR363 isn't in the Castrol product lines of ANY of the nordic countries (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark). It also seems (reports from other forum contributors) that countries like Spain and Greece are also omitted. Bad development. Here's a direct translation from the e-mail response that I just got today from Castrol Finland Sales Manager - READ ON!!! "...IN FACT, ACCORDING TO THE BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE, PRODUCTION OF THE BRAKE FLUID IN QUESTION (RR363) IS NOT BEING CONTINUED TOO FAR IN THE FUTURE." I phoned the Sales Manager immediately. He (unoffically) let me know, that the information is valid, but unoffical. Using his exact words, "the product has been 'crossed over' for the future, but we don't want to give this information out too widely yet". He also kindly requested that I didn't put this information out in the public (I'm an automotive journalist). Make no mistake about it: this is what he said. It is clear that the information isn't from him but from a higher instance within Castrol. No definitive deadline for the ceasing has been set, however. I don't plan to sell this news to any media, except the RR forums I surf myself. Next step is to contact Castrol in the UK. DH | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 |
At least Castrol has replied you!! I am still waiting their reply from a month ago. After several calls to BP Spain, finally they told me that i had to ask directly to a reseller (distributor) of them. After one week waiting, this reseller (one of the greatest distributors in Madrid area) told me that this product was yet discontinued and was not possible to buy anymore from Castrol/BP in Spain. As i wrote in other post, that has caused a dramatical increase of the prices of the rr363 in the few sellers of it in Spain. They are asking for 35 Euros /liter I am buying now it directly from UK for not reaching 12 Euros in my home door (that is shippemnt included) here you have the link to the site of the UK seller: http://www.castrolclassicoils.co.uk Martin Powell is who has attended me. Nice person. I have to say that Introcar sells this also out of UK, but they add 17% VAT to their price, and Castrolclassicoils´s price is yet VAT included. About the just yet known RR363 formulation, we still do not know the percentage of the mixture. May percentages of between 18% and 22%would be enough, but i am just bases in what are user in the little car and planes racing experience. Also, would be really carefully about what Castor Oil to be used. At least in Spain, this oil is also known as Ricine Oil. I do not know if is just a different translation, or just a concept error. Ricine is a leguminose plant and castor an animal..I do not know about why this names...sorry. As i was saying, Ricine oils must be carefully choosen because they use to made laquers in the metal, so it must be of the higher quality. A german manufacturer called KLOTZ has one of the most reputed ricin oil in Europe: Klotz Benol For these friendes in Spanish Antipodes here you have a link in Newzeland: http://www.the436modelshop.co.nz/manufacture_list.asp?manufact=KLOTZ Let´s see what happens with this matter. Please, let´s us know once one of us has tested it in his RR SS. SRH3430 would thank him the information. regards from Madrid i our firts year 11-M Blasts. | ||||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2005 |
Miguel, For info: CASTOR OIL Synonym: Oleum Ricini A yellow viscous liquid with a slight bland odour. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Standard: It is the fixed oil obtained by cold compression from the seeds of Ricinus communis. Castor oil consists of approximately 80% of the Triglyceride of Ricinoleic Acid. Its also contains other glycerides of the fatty acids oleic, linoleic and stearic. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Solubility: Soluble, at 20ºC, in 2.5 parts alcohol. Miscible with dilute alcohol, ether and glacial Acetic Acid. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action and Uses: Castor Oil is a mild purgative with a secondary astringent effect. The laxative effect is quicker with dogs than with large animals. It is a safe and effective purgative for all animals. Castor Oil is a soothing application when dropped into the eye after the removal of foreign objects. It is also an excellent solvent for alkaloids for application to the conjuctivita. Castor Oil is also used occasionally as a soothing base for creams and ointments. It also a source of essential Omega fatty acids. I wouldn't just go making your own RR363 by bunging some castor oil in a bottle of Dot3/4 and giving it a shake. I imagine there is more to it than that, with stabilizers and solubility agents, etc.....(on the other hand it might just work!!..) but, seriously I wouldn't risk a home made brew for brakes under any circumstances. GN. | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 |
Gordon, I agree with your opinion. I will not be so simple!!. By the moment is still available and at a reasonable price the RR363, so there is no need to make further actions. Anyway, I am Sure that in a few years, this would be different. Now that the support of our RR SS is on the new Bentley (Did I say Support? NOOO, they do not support anymore our cars!! After a question about a technical data to them, they told me literally I copy the mail: "Dear Sir All records and information for vehicles of this age are now held by the Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts Club. You can contact them via their website at www.rrec.co.uk. BENTLEY MOTORS LIMITED Crewe, Cheshire, CW1 3PL, England Tel: +44 (0) 1270 255155 http://www.bentleymotors.com/" So really, i feel that to the new head of Bentley they do not mind anything about it. Next step would be from Castrol (we are yet suffering it in the countries where not too many RR SS are in the roads. That´s why i think that would be nice to ask to Castrol at club´s level from all over the world to make public the real formula, so some other smaller industries could offer it to the market. I do not know if what i am saying is a foolish, but i thing that it could be an action to be done by RR clubs from all over the world. regards. | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 616 Registered: 4-2003 |
This is in line with Citroen car club information I posted several years ago. Someone (an amateur by the way) recommended a substitute for LHS. From memory, the blend is 17% Castrol R (which is indeed a racing formula of straight castor oil) and 83% DOT 4. The trouble is that no one in authority has approved it. Also, RR363 is less viscous, which may or may not matter. The site is: http://www.compufort.com/users/cando/fluid.html Until something is approved, it's RR363 for this safety application. Shipping a box of the stuff to Finland or Spain is not a big deal and not expensive. | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you Richard. As I said, by the moment i am buying it (RR363) from UK at a reasonable price. I gave the link to the dealer wher I buy in an upper post. It may be useful to our friends in Finland and Greece. By the hand i have to say that RR official service in Spain are just puting the hand in client´s pockets with the price of this product (It could be called by other way less elegant) but this matter was consecuence of the decission of BP in Spain of discontinuing the product. Sorry for my insistence, but i am feeling that in a short time, this problem will be suffered in all other countries. That are market rules, and now the manufacturer of the car does not mind about "this age models" we prowdly own. The reply that i got from the new Bentley Customer service will be hanged in a framed hang in my garage. I own a 1960´s Mercedes 190D "Colas" and in any Mercedes dealer in my area, they give me all the technical information what i ask them, but of course, Mercedes has not been bought and Bentley has been. Would this be interpreted as a ruptury line with their History? I Forgot say that I asked Bentley because RR UK Customer Service wich i asked first, just replyied me that cars of this age was now supported by bentley. If anyone wants the mails, i will put them as PDF Files. regards. | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2005 |
To whom could concern: I upload the 2 mails mentioned.
regards | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 618 Registered: 4-2003 |
If you look at my post in SZ accumulator spheres under the Silver Spirit topics, you will see that I agree with you. The owners of the older cars are considered an annoying phenomenum. Crewe and Goodwood feel very superior. A friend of mine visited both recently, and the people there were visibly annoyed that he considers himself a R-R and B owner. He was given very short, cold and perfunctory treatment. | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2004 |
Good evening to everyone, Miguel and Richard - you've just taken my words. I'm not so concerned about ordering my five litres of RR363 every two years (remember, it has to be changed completely and topped up regularly!) - even though it seems a really stupid exercise to be a brake fluid that's formulated sometime in the 60's and now still considered "superb" just due to the fact that the formula is secret - or is it? What worries me more is that Castrol clearly is showing signs of frustration and "going out of production" -actions about RR363. What shall we Shadow owners do the day Castrol OFFICIALLY states that RR363 is discontinued? Think about it! BTW; has anyone thought about replacing RR363 with LHS2? Citroën people say that RR stuff does not have enough "lubricating additive/characterics" to work in Citis - but how about the other way around? Personally, I haven't studied that topic this way - just a thought. To best of my knowledge, lubricating the hydraulic system is ALL RR363 is about - otherwise it's the normal DOT3 (J 1703 or SAE70 R3). As usual, I do not want to say the last word on this topic - at least yet. Would it be feasible to set up a trustworthy, full chemical analysis of the RR363 if Castrol are unwilling to give up the formula even when they cease the production? Really, it could be quite easily set up with a fund to finance it. Furthermore, I suspect that if Castrol really is planning to kill RR363 in the near future, (as it seems now), any action showing poor service towards RR/B enthusiasts from them could actually create much better response if their PR people recognice the problem. For this, we should all stand up! Just remember what took place in Europe with lead being banned from fuel and the additives taking up the markets. It all worked very well. Why or why it could not work with the brake fluid? The problem is, of course, safety related, but I would guess that DOT 4 stops a Shadow OK - if only the pumps are lubricated. If they're not, there are 2 warning lights to show that. If I'm beeing stupid, just let me know. DH | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 619 Registered: 4-2003 |
LHS / 2 Good idea. Being a safety nut, I need just ONE signal from someone who will make qualified statement, and it's a done deal. | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 359 Registered: 9-2004 |
Use LHS2 instead of 363 in a RR/B when applicable NO WAY. LhS2 has nearly double the viscosity this is for the citroen system running high speed high pressure pump and the clutch assist with the speed centrufugal regulator and the higher running temp of the system. Also the working clearance of moving parts are greater than RR/B allowing for less wear,the units have returns to the resovoir for this very purpose. The fluid has more lubricating propertys than 363 this is for the power rack etc. What effect on RR/B that would have i do not know, It may be wasted. What the higher viscosity would do on a cold day with the RR/b pressure pumps push rods and cam lobes i can only imagine as with other componets within the system. As for the use of R363 in the place of castol LhS2 with regard to pre 1966 Citoens i do not understand. | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 624 Registered: 4-2003 |
I agree that LMS2 may not be the final solution, Pat. However, if not LHS2, what else ? By the way, the similar SZ cars' systems have far more reliable hydraulics than Silver Shadow series cars. Their LMH fluids are more viscous than either LHS2 or RR363. We're all still looking for a solution to when RR363 is soon discontinud. | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 |
In Spain (and i think in other EU Countries) is easy to find "white labeled" branded products of the propietary (and expensive) some fluids from the new BMW and Audi-SEAT-Volkwagen motors. They are copied from the originals and you can find them in the most common car spare shops malls(Aurgi, Feu vert, Norauto, etc...). By the moment i have no notice of any legal inquiry against this commercial malls or to the brands manufacturing and selling the products. The fact is tha this are sold this way (copied) because there are enaugh market to earn profits. Whith our RR363 matter, the situation is different. Any idea about how many SS are still running all over the world? I do not, but in Spain, i think that no more than 150. (Has any club a global census of alive cars?). What i mean is that i think that it will not be profitable to any company to "clone" the RR363 because the park of potential customers shall not be so large... May be companys as the australian PENRITE http://www.penrite.com.au wold be a chance? Any one has done a inquiry to them about this matter?. About the home made solution (Blend of 83% DOT-3 and 17% Ricine Oil) has anybody done any analisis of the viscosity and lubricating properties? | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 360 Registered: 9-2004 |
Has there been any talk of Pentosin stopping the manufacture of LHS2 for the citroen cars? If not i have idea. If Castrol were to stop manufacture of RR363 could we not do a 50/50 mix of LHS2 and DOT 3/4 i bet the viscosity would be about right and the lube could possible be better. [quiet rear rams if you suffer from them] The olny worry is if castrol were not going to stop the product and if they read this they may well do. | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 416 Registered: 4-2003 |
From my discussions with the Citroen Car Club; it is my understanding that LHS has not been available from any supplier including Pentosin for some years and this is the reason for their interest in RR363 as a replacement I have an Adobe PDF file which comprehensively covers this topic which I will try to include as an attachment below.
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| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 417 Registered: 4-2003 |
Miracles do happen to keep me motivated!! Do not try to open the file from the attachment; just save it to your computer then open with Acrobat Reader [Right-click with mouse then use "Save as" command]. Flushed with success; I am going to attach more supplementary information from my archives. Due acknowledgement is given to the Victorian Branch of the Citroen Car Club for the article from their journal.
(Message edited by david_gore on March 13, 2005) | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 361 Registered: 9-2004 |
David aready did and it worked!Had a quick read and off to do some gardening deep in thought now 363. will have a go at those paper clip thingies but seen to remember they did not work for me[springs] | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 625 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks, David. Mark's Mix is the one I cited about 3 years ago: 18.5% Castrol R. I have seen between 17% and 20% used. See also: http://www.candokaraoke.com/ Now, who will put their neck on the block ? | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia New User Username: magarcia Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 |
After reading carefully the file, it seems that this Mix percentege is the right for the viscosity of the LHS liquid. But it seems that RR363 is less viscose than it (over 55% less, could be?) With that percentage, it would be very close to the DOT3 viscosity...ummm, i think someting wrong here... I am in trouble finding the equivalence from "mm^2/s" to "mPa/sec" as vicosity units, so i am not able to find the equivalence from the Pentosin analisys and this other Chart of mixtures... here you can get the conversions: http://www.onlineconversion.com/viscosity_dynamic.htm Regards. | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 362 Registered: 9-2004 |
After my four years of running dot 4 in my SS1 as a somewhat silly test looking back. I had a hydralic pressure pump get noisy this was after replaceing the diapragms and regasing with a 2nd dot 4 fluid change, the hotter it got the worse the noise. I decided to use the new 363 and after use the noise has never returned. As to putting my neck on the block and useing dot3/4 with a castor oil mix as is, no i don't think so. In my mind it would need some amount of thinning agent, alcohol springs to mind but the stuff may disappear as it seems to when get hold of it. The viscosity is in my opinon far to high as it is. I have visions of pump seizure push rods snapping etc in cold weather. The accumulator pressure relief valves may go into incorrect pressures due to the higher viscosity. I'm shore there are plenty of small independents that would carry on the 363 if the formular was passed to them by Castrol. | ||||
| Bob WART Unregistered guest Posted From: 203.54.141.84 |
Moderator's Comment: I have rejected three posts from this IP Address for inappropriate content and language. (Message edited by david_gore on March 14, 2005) | ||||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2004 |
I certainly hope that the above thread (whatever it was) will not be confused with me. For a start, anyone who knows me also knows that not only is my last name spelt differently but it is also pronounced as W.E.R.T. as in Worth except without the H. | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 635 Registered: 4-2003 |
Robert, I don't believe anyone would confuse you with the phantom contributor. His location, 203.54.141.84 or more fully: EHPP-p-203-54-141-84.prem.tmns.net.au is from Australia of course. The lengths people go to to disguise their identity through dial-ups and internet cafés is infantile. Just look at the other obscenities he's posting around the world. Just laugh at it I suggest. RT. | ||||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 139 Registered: 12-2004 |
That I certainly will Richard. Thankyou for the private message. Hope you got my response Okay. Rob | ||||
| John Aravanis New User Username: krug300 Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 |
I would not mind at all to share the cost with a few (?)of us who would like to do a full chemical analysis on RR363. After all it is not rocket science we are talking about. BP Greece have been uncooperative on this issue to the point of.."huh? what is RR363". When I insisted they said they could import it for me at a minimum of 200 liters (17 cases...). Gosh, I could change my fluid for the next eighty years. I am sure that the secret recipe for 363 is much simpler than thought. If someone has access to a suitable laboratory I think we could have an answer, and that could lead another company to manufacture a similar product. There is nothing new to develop, 363 is not patent protected (or so I believe) and a smaller automotive chemical producing company could benefit economicaly by producing a generic 363 product. The demand is there and it is not that small I believe. Then let Castrol or BP phase out 363 an hour sooner...who will care. John, Greece | ||||
| Miguel A. Garcia Experienced User Username: magarcia Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
John, i agree with you. I do not mind if we share the cost or get any agree with a small company to buy the product to them... | ||||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 385 Registered: 9-2004 |
Miguel,In a posting somewhere there has been some talk of the 363 having been sent for testing the formular. As the contributor J G Dare of BEAUMARIS tel[03]95891516 stated he has and advised folk to run on DOT 4 as he has done for years and backed up by the results of the test. I assume he will carry any liability if any accidents occure as a result of useing DOT 4 He may help you and confirm to you in more detail. As far as i am concerned and i hope others will stay with the 363 as it is proved the correct product in all RR cars pre LHM. LONG MAY CASTROL PRODUCE IT | ||||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Pat, I'm searching for a lab that could manage a full chemical analysis of RR363 at a reasonable cost. Why? For me, and for an increasing number of fellow enthusiasts, RR 363 is a nag to get hold of. This seems to been forgotten in the midst of discussion. I would really buy the damn fluid if Castrol didn't make it so difficult!!! Imagine having to order your Mobil 1 from abroad just because your official importer didn't actually import it! And no other stuff would do... If you really think about it; FIN, SE, NO, DK, GR and SP all including is over 70 million inhabitants altogether. Castrol says: "Sorry, will not deliver". That's service for you in a big way! Again, I can order it from UK, of course, but that's missing the point that Castrol will drop it eventually (if I'm proven wrong in the future I'm more than happy!). Therefore, one must think beforehand. Someone stated that if Castrol was to discontinue RR 363 they would pass it over to their historic dept. Ok, but who really believes that this would improve things IN ANY WAY? JGD of certain fame has nothing to do with me, fortunately, but I've been forced to fill my reservoirs with DOT4 in the absense of Castrol help. Temporarily. No, the car car is not beeing driven yet. At the moment, I've got an order for a gallon of RR 363 in from US. Let's see if I get it... Oh dear, this is like walking on broken glass..! Correct me where I go wrong, please, anyone: a) RR363 was developed in the 60's of off DOT3 b) RR363 has a lubricative agent in it c) RR363 may or may not have other additive(s) d) RR363 is getting harder to get e) RR363 has been told being under the the threat of discontinuing by Castrol f) RR363 absorbs moisture (water) which is not an ideal for a brake fluid g) RR363 is only supplied by Castrol, so we're hung on a sole supplier and it's terms & pricing h) there's no harm in trying to fing an alternative for the future Well, that's my pennies worth. As soon I'll get some prices from reputable labs I'll let you all know. Happy Easter to everyone! DH | ||||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 671 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hyvinkyää Harry, See the Blue Wheels thread. This one is tired. RT. | ||||
| Serge PONTES Frequent User Username: serrgio Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi everybody ! "hello" from france I've just have read all this about "end" of RR363...and I'm surprised with the question off analys. Because last year, when I've already asked on this forum about the "intermedial" RR363 formulation of the end off the 90's, Richard answered many thinks very interesting and important (as usualy..) and one was that analys was made in germany at this time (end of 90's) and have reveled that roughtly, the fluid was dot3 with 17%... ricin oil, and this mixture could be an alternative in case off problems. is that "old fation" ? by sergio (SRH22789) | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 469 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi SeRRgio, In summary, use current RR363 in plastic bottles with "new-design" label only. RR363 in plastic bottles with the "old-type" label should be used for flushing purposes only - "good" RR363 has a distinct yellow tinge; "suspect" RR363 is almost colourless when poured from a new bottle. Old fluid will show a yellow hue. | ||||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 438 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sergio See my post Dirty Pumps. And here is a picture of the new and old RR 363. The new bottle is on the left.  | ||||
| Phil Black Unregistered guest Posted From: 210.50.249.42 |
Am now nearly ready to fill up the brakes and have got four old not opened yet bottles like on the right side picture but need about seven to fill it and one extra for a spare top up sometime. What is wrong with this type that I just looked at that looks mainly clear in the bottle with a torch and can I mix this OK if I get three new bottles. The old type that came out was B.P heavy duty type I think used in Hong Kong that looked greeny blue but now all flushed out with meth. spirit and new rubber hoses are in too (Message approved by david_gore) | ||||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 471 Registered: 4-2003 |
Phil, I repeat my advice to SeRRgio as above - only use RR363 in the bottle on the left; the fluid you describe is the previous formulation which has a reputation for causing problems especially noise from the self-levelling rams. I would not contemplate mixing the two fluids under any circumstances. | ||||
| Serge PONTES Frequent User Username: serrgio Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi, thanks David for advoices. thanks Bill for the picture. After last year and your advoices, I only bought the good fluid, in left bottles, and you already send me this picture by email. My question was just in case of complete desappearance off RR363 if castrol deceide to stop the fluid. that's not in fact an actual question because in france, we can find it esay due to the proximity of UK... have a nice day !!! | ||||
| Phil Black Unregistered guest Posted From: 210.50.41.19 |
Yesterday from intersate I got seven more new plastic bottles of the special "363" but one of them didnt have the little green Castrol lable on it so now Ive mainly got some "good" fluid but one of the suspect ones too and didnt think anyone could ever make bad brake fluid by law. I ran around trying to get another bottle of the good one and this morning too but couldnt and yesterday I phoned the Huntsman Co thats part of the big I.C.I Co who told me they make all of the clutch and brake fluid thats sold with different brand names in Australia but not the "363" and they tried hard for me to find a local seller for it on their computer. I am just confused by the fact you can get "good" fluid and suspect fluid that you cant mix in and I have to finish the brakes this long week end now so I will have put back fresh greeny blue B.P heavy duty disc fluid like before that was used in Honk kong when my car was there and like I hear is used across America too. But thanks for the help so far on this long but nearly finished job (Message approved by david_gore) | ||||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 219 Registered: 8-2003 |
Phil; Speaking as one Yank I do NOT use B.P. product my Shadow only uses RR363 that of course I get from a Crewe Parts Dealer. You can also obtain it on the Internet from several sources but by the time you pay postage usually more than a more local sourced, Bentley Dealer. Best regards, Bill |
First mail from RR Customer Service