| Author | Message | ||
     Michael Moran New User Username: mjcmoran Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hi RROCA I am an Australian who has belonged to the RREC in the UK for over 20 years (I lived in Central London) and have owned my SS for 30 years. I have lived in Warsaw in Poland since 2004 (details on request). A challenge owning and maintaining an SS here! Below is a posting I put on the RREC Message Board but without a satisfactory explanation of how to proceed. Ashley James from the RREC suggested I contact Bill Coburn on this issue. "Thank you all for your advice and explanations but it has not really helped me make this decision on buying new springs. They are not particularly cheap if you have ever priced them. I think I would like to replace them. I believe introducing spacers is now not legal in the UK for some reason and so obviously not a good idea. Shims may also be ineffective in the longer term so I am told and how does one decide how many to buy anyway? I have been advised that adjusting the self-levelling to compensate for weakened springs means the car will be then be 'riding on the self-levelling rams' to raise the ride height and so is not a good idea as it overworks the rams. However Ashley said in a previous comment that the car suspension does not function like this and is not in fact resting on the rams if the springs have weakened over time. Perhaps I have misunderstood what he meant. Ashley, you said in a posting rear ride height is 'not critical'. Could you expand on that a bit? I presume stretching the old springs even with heat tempering is also a poor idea from the metallurgical point of view. The diagrams you referred me to are great Neil to explain the working of the system - amazing acually aren't they - but does not help me in making the decision concerning the springs. It does not clarify the spring/ram dilemma. Considering how common this problem of 'saggy bum' is with all original unrestored Shadows and derivatives there are a multitude of different and seriously conflicting opinions. Most owners never seem to even think about it. Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder. How much sag is actually acceptable over the years? Any at all or should the car be returned to its original showroom standing height irrespective of the rough estimation of the flat of the hand fitting snugly between the wheel arch and the top of the tyre? Doing this height adjustment according to the Workshop Manual is actually not an easy task and the instructions are not particularly clear. New springs are only available as an aftermarket part. Any source someone can recommend? Flying Spares? The supplier must post overseas. Advice on any of the above most welcome. Michael Moran www.michael-moran.net | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 481 Registered: 1-2008 |
Whether Flying Spares will post overseas I couldn't say, but with Poland now being part of the EU I should expect them to do so. However I think that their current price per spring (£154 - <> €178) plus shipping is quite reasonable. I'm sure they were at least £250 each a year ago. Perhaps it reflects them having bought out Montague & Co. lock, stock & barrel a couple of months ago. Even though I've already fixed the rear springs on my Shadow using hard rubber spacers top & bottom at that kind of price I am seriously considering buying a pair for the future. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 425 Registered: 6-2009 |
Michael, If you're considering buying new springs, download the RR & Bentley Parts, Repair, Restoration & Other Resources Compilation I maintain and search it for Coil Spring Specialties. This company in Kansas, USA, has been the "go to" source for these springs here for a very long time. Although it's possible that shipping might be prohibitively expensive you never know until you check. You'll also not have VAT. Brian, who's got a pair of these in storage in case I need them later | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 482 Registered: 1-2008 |
Although the US doesn't charge VAT or even local Sales Tax on items for export there's always a strong chance that UKBF operating in the guise of Customs & Revenue may intercept them and stick import tax and VAT on them. It can get even worse if they charge the postal or courier service with collecting the money on delivery as they usually want another £30 or more for the privilege! Oddly if the items had originally been made over here and then shipped to the US for sale no import duties would be payable - even though VAT hadn't been charged due to the export nature of the sale in the first place. As such I bought 3 British manufactured oil filter elements for my Shadow through a US eBayer for less than the price of one over here - including transatlantic shipping! | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 426 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, I have been told that things marked "antique car parts - refurbished" are not subject to customs (in either direction), but that could be utterly false. I do know that several individuals I know used this, legitimately, to send various bits and pieces out of the U.S. and back in to other countries to have work done on an item that was to be sent back (or where it was the core for another refurbished item) and avoided any issues with customs. I have no idea how Polish authorities would operate as far as this goes. One thing's for sure, you can't "sneak in" a set of these springs!! Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1290 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gentlemen, please be aware our Australian solution to the Shadow rear spring sag problem over time is not based on the same spring dimensions as used for regular production cars sold in the US/UK and other "civilised" markets. Our solution involves manufacturing replacement springs using spring steel rod that is 1/8 inch greater in diameter than the original spring material to ensure the springs work within their elastic limit at all times to avoid the "permanent set" that afflicts the standard springs over time. These springs can be sourced from Lovell Springs: http://www.lovellsauto.com.au/ or Robert Chapman Automotive: http://www.rachapmanautomotive.com.au/ I am certain either of these suppliers would have no problem shipping these springs internationally. | ||
| Kevin Lagden Frequent User Username: kevin Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2009 |
Flying Spares do indeed ship internationally. Order on a Monday and the parts are normally with you on Friday. No VAT on UK export and no GST upon import. They send by courier. I have often deposited items into my suitcase when visiting the UK and taken them back to Oz in my luggage. Never had an issue with customs, they are all pretty good about it. Can't speak for Poland however. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1291 Registered: 4-2003 |
Michael, You need to access and download a full set of Bill Coburn's "Tee One Topics" from the Technical Library as Bill has covered the "saggy spring problem" in this publication as well as providing a plethora of useful information for DIY custodians. The downloads are free and can be accessed on the following link: http://rrtechnical.info/TeeOne/teeone.htm There is also an Index which covers issues up to Issue 63 which can be downloaded from the following link: http://www.rroc.org.au/wiki/images/1/1c/Index_TeeOne.pdf There is a lot of reading involved however the information is priceless especially for Shadow DIY custodians. A search of this forum using "Shadow Springs" as both keywords will also provide threads which contain a lot of useful information too numerous to detail here. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1510 Registered: 4-2003 |
Can I add to David's advice. I have installed 5 sets of rear springs from Chapmans and they are excellent. I think they have an 'extra' coil and they haven't sagged yet after years of service. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 427 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bill, I believe that the same applies to the springs made by Coil Spring Specialties. If anyone happens to have an old spring off a car that can do a coil count and/or diameter measurement I can check that against the spare set I have. It's not really convenient/feasible to carry this out on springs on the car. I know this won't help you in The Land Down Under but it would be nice to know for us on the other side of the Pacific "pond." Brian | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Brian. The ones I have are ten coils hope this helps. Richard. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 428 Registered: 6-2009 |
Richard, It certainly does. If you happen to have a caliper handy please get the diameter of the spring itself. I'll check this out, even if only the coil count, against what I have in storage over the next couple of days. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian I count 10 also for the one in the photo at Flying Spares: http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/suspension/rear-suspension-silver-shadow-corniche-bentley-t-1-2/rear-shock-absorbers-and-springs/from-vin-16214/rear-spring-rh13380p.html Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 429 Registered: 6-2009 |
It turned out to be very convenient to get these springs out of storage since I'm currently in "clear the garage" mode for the anticipated homecoming of LRK37110. Here are photographs showing the spring supplied by Coil Spring Specialties. This company is the "go to" outfit for springs for our cars here in the USA. One of the leading Crewe Original suppliers, Bentley Zionsville, AKA Albers uses them (or at least did for years and probably still does) for aftermarket springs. Full Spring:  Spring Length (approximately 54.6 cm):  Coil Diameter:  If I'm counting the same way Geoff's counting, this spring has 11 coils. Brian | ||
| bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.127.23 |
The ram puhes down the top of the spring which lifts the car so in effect the car is always riding on the rams. In the valves are set correctly then the car should ride at the correct height regardless of weak rear springs To check that the springs have not sagged then unload them ---- no need to remove them completely just loose and slapping around is fine for measurement------------- and compare with manual. My thoughts are that if the springs are the correct length and not rusty causing a reduction of wire diameter and they have not been heated by an idiot then they are servicable My car has rubber towing wedges on all 4 springs. Shims are allowed as part of the design of spring mountings Shadows were designed with shims. THe hydraulics are designed to run all day with a full load so running with a bit of ram out will not damage the car and when the car is not running it will sink and then pump up again thus exercising the hydraulics. Lack of use wreaks hydraulics which is why aero boys are so fussy about leaving aircraft around unused Also what tyre pressures are you on max 35 psi (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2008 |
Bob, this is exactly my philosophy and has been for the last 15 years that I have used my Shadow ( as my everyday car until 2 years ago when I pensioned it off and had it restored.) Mark | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 431 Registered: 6-2009 |
I will freely admit to using rubber spring spacers (this one, specifically, available in the US through Jegs and Summit Racing) to adjust the ride height on SRH33576. One of my most hellish experiences was trying to get the rams out of this car to put in a new set of springs (one of which was pictured above). It's the only job I finally said was just not worth it when other options existed. You may need to check every few years to see if the spacers are perishing, but that's about it. Springs that have had 30 years to settle to whatever degree of "spring" they settle to are very, very unlikely to settle further. I don't find the use of spring spacers/shims anathema. It's another way of fixing what needs to be fixed but that has different ongoing maintenance requirements. Brian, who also runs on tire pressures above 30 PSI and would never for a moment consider the insanely low figures suggested by Crewe in the Owner's Handbook | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 209 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian This is really useful information. I still have not got round to replacing my rear suspension springs as other jobs have got in the way. I can live with the slight saggy bottom on my car for a while but will be sorting this in the future. The Kansas springs look really good and do have the extra coil. This should really save on postal charges which, as all us US people know, can double the cost of an item when imported in from abroad. Good news indeed. When I was looking at my rear suspension springs I did fully decompress them as I was considering using the spacers as shims i.e. above and below the springs. However I found that the housing was not deep enough for me to feel comfortable about making the modification and so just pushed the spacers to the ends of the de-compressed springs. You probably already know this, but you do not need to remove the rams to replace the rear springs; not on an SY-I for sure. You can leave the damper in place as long as you tie up the damper spindle. This is documented in tee-one topics where a length of coat hanger wire is used to stop the damper spindle from extending downwards and obstructing the suspension spring as it is removed. Just a thought. Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 433 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Thanks for the additional information. When I put in the spring spacers I did as you describe. While the car was up on a lift and the springs quite decompressed I threaded two spacers per side up toward the top end of each spring. The original intent was to replace both the rear shocks and springs. I also now believe I was too hesitant with the use of a heavy hammer to get the toothed washer-nut to free up. A zip gun didn't work, and after that I just decided to shelve the project at that time. I had just replaced every hydraulic hose on the car with the exception of the high pressure hoses from the ACV to the body, so was really ready for a break from hydraulic work for a while. Not too long after that the one side of my dual SU fuel pump that had been running the car for who knows how long died, so a fuel pump rebuild became the next priority. This past year I finally got around to rebuilding the accumulators (which, based on what I found I would never do "first" again, I'd try doing a nitrogen recharge) and the ACVs, with lots of "life related" junk and "having been insane enough to buy a second SY car that needed revival from the dead" stuff thrown in as well. Brian, who has resorted to "employing a real mechanic" to put in the new exhaust parts and to install the new compliance mounts | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2012 |
Brian, I also use rubber spring spacers on SRH19529 I have them fitted between the coils two on each spring, The number of coils on the front springs on my car is eleven I found this out when I recently fitted new Zach Super Touring Shock Absorbers/Dampers these had the effect of lowering the front height giving the car a more balanced appearance I will measure the length of the old rear spring later when it gets daylight I run my tyre pressures at 35 PSI Richard. | ||
| bobuk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.127.23 |
As an apprentice I had to make a City and Guilds 193 mechanical craft cold chisel. The steel used had about 0.6 carbon after forging and filing up to make it shinny heat to red heat quench fast Dead hard and brittle To temper polish again so the colours can be seen heat until about to go blue and quench fast Sharpen on grind stone Then test I still have the chisel nearly fifty years later and it has been seriously clouted with a club hammer many times Springs are made from a different steel but the main ingrediant that makes it spring steel is carbon and maybe manganese can't remenber exact Because of the carbon content of ABOVE 0.3% the steel hardens and tempers the same as the chisel Coil springs can sag but they are unlikely to lose its temper Because temper is locked when they are heat treated. Tyres I havn't said this nothing to do with me you are all sensible people If a car is left standing then it can develop flat spots So drive car to get the tyres warm inflate to 60psi allow tyres to cool deflate to correct pressure I reckon that to damage a tyre's structure by over inflation would probaly take a lot more psi As I said you are sensible people and I am not a tyre guru I just listen to experts. I run at 35 psi all round this keeps the contact patch flat anymore and I might get centre area wear. Also I have stop swopping around tyres to even wear because it causes the tyre to wear quicker as it wears to the new contact area pressure profile Tyre manuafactures are about to reveise date markings on tyres Ministry of transport will then prohibit tyre over 10 years old This will happen around 5 years time The reason is that ten years old boots are not safe neither is old stock this is what I have been told by a Goodyear rep. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1042 Registered: 6-2006 |
I believe a spring sitting in your tool box would not loose its temper, but if you flexed your cold chisel hundreds of thousands of times you would endup with a Uri Gella esque looking device. Until about 1986 I had never or almost never seen a broken spring . Since then they have become a stock item. I often get cars in which need 2 , 3 , or four springs replacing. I believe on lesser cars they are almost a service item ! Tyres and low performance cars . . imho Tyres should be properly checked bi annually as there are too many variables to say when in time a tyre will fail. I have driven safety on 50 year old Tyres and have refused to drive a two year old car because of it's tyres . Goodyear rep saying 10 year old tyres are unsafe = sounds like a conflict of interest there . . . unless he knows that Goodyear are now using such poor quality materials and workmanship that they are producing sub standard Tyres. High speed applications need to be thought of differently of course, but a well cared for tyre will last and be safe for many times longer than a non cared for one. | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2012 |
Brian, I measured my old spring it is 52cm long and 15.875 dia or 20 and 1/8th inch long and 5/8th dia this spring was 38 years old when I removed it earlier this year I wonder what changed in those 38 years. Richard. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 434 Registered: 6-2009 |
Richard, In all my years of car ownership I've only had one other car (a 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight) where rear spring replacement was recommended. [And on that car I was still in my very young and very stupid days. In retrospect I don't think it was necessary.] Even though these cars are heavy, there are plenty of other heavy vehicles that don't suffer the chronic saggy springs that the Shadows do. They were clearly "undersprung," resulting in the spring set ultimately being further compressed under load. It seems that the aftermarket (and, I'd suspect, possibly Crewe Original as well) has figured this out and the replacement springs are being made with the extra coil and slightly larger coil diameter. Paul, The discussion regarding when tires should, as a general rule, be replaced as a matter of course has been evolving on these shores for a number of years now. Like so many things related to very specific and arcane information known only to the manufacturers, much of what's stated comes from manufacturers. The emerging consensus from the tire manufacturers seems to be the 10-year mark while many automobile makers are using the 6-year mark for recommended replacement of all tires in service. I agree that a "tended tire" will last far longer, and be far safer during its life, than an untended one. Here are some of the links where I'd been reading recently (as I do need a new set of tires for LRK37110 - I suspect the ones on her now are between 15 and 20 years old): http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/05/tire-aging-when-to-buying-new-car-tires-based-on-age.html http://www.safetyresearch.net/2006/03/01/two-tire-makers/ http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=183& http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTireLife.dos http://us.coopertire.com/Tire-Safety/Replacement-Tire-Guide/Tire-Service-Life.aspx Brian | ||
| Benoit Leus Frequent User Username: benoitleus Post Number: 81 Registered: 6-2009 |
I used to work in the tyre industry and the Goodyear man is right in stating that a tyre over 10 years old shouldn't be used anymore. This has nothing to do with the quality of their products (which for all major manufacterers has very much improved) but is because rubber will harden over the years. Tyres are especially prone to this, because they are exposed to the elements and are subject to major temperature differences. That doesn't mean that a +10 year old tyre will delaminate or explode, but it wil lose a lot of its roadholding qualities, as the rubber will less easily adapt to the road surface. Benoit | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 483 Registered: 1-2008 |
The tyre longevity discussion is supported by the fact that most trailer/caravan tyres will perish long before they run out of usable tread. This is exacerbated on touring caravans which tend to only get used infrequently; often seeing only a few K miles/kilometres per annum. A couple of years ago I set out for a long weekend car club meet towing my little 1 tonne tourer and only got 30 klicks into the 200 klick journey when a hardly used tyre blew out taking out much of the inner & outer wheel arches along with a significant proportion of the floor and electrics around the arch. Admittedly the tyre turned out to be a 'Colway' remould - a company that is infamous for poor quality small sized remoulds, although their larger (15" or greater) tend to be quite good. In case you're wondering: I replaced both tyres & wheel arches, repaired the floor & electrics and made the meet just 24 hours later than originally planned. As for the specs of springs I would have thought that you would need more than just the free length, number of 'turns', open and/or closed ends and wire diameter. Wouldn't the compressed length for a given loading be also required? With all that info it shouldn't be difficult to find a local spring producer to custom make a pair or even find some 'on the shelf' with virtually identical or even superior characteristics. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1046 Registered: 6-2006 |
I can only speak from my experience, which is 90% RR&B cars. I would rather drive on 15 year old tyres (or even older) that have been used once a month than 5 year old tyres that have been sitting on a vehicle that has been parked on grass or on a damp surface and never or rarely moved. I am not saying that time does not affect tyres but would suggest that the way a tyre is used and cared for is far more important with regard to safety than age alone. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Experienced User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 47 Registered: 8-2012 |
Tyres definitely perish with age. I had a Fiesta once that failed the MOT due to this reason. It was used regularly for short town journeys. The Pirelli tyres were 11 years old but had only done around 8,000 miles and looked new. The MOT inspector showed me the tires and I was horrified. The side walls had completely perished and you could almost peel the rubber off with your fingers! Whole blocks of tread could be prised off with a screwdriver. I emphasise that these were top brand tyres and looked brand new with plenty of tread left. I maintained the car in tip-top condition, and had it serviced around every 750 miles! I had no idea that I was driving a death trap. PLEASE do not use old tyres. They are VERY DANGEROUS. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1047 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bob, that is precisely why I say you must INSPECT the tyres regularly. Your tyres did not go from a safe condition to the condition that the MOT inspector pointed out to you on the journey to the MOT station. Nor did they deteriorate to that condition on reaching 10 tears old! You say the tyres looked "brand new" but have you ever seen brand new tyres with perished walls like that? With all due respect, those tyres had been deteriorating over time and inspecting the tyres properly would have revealed deterioration before they reached that condition. Inspecting tyres is not the same as walking around a car and seeing if there is thread left, Just like servicing a car isn't just changing the oil and filter! I would also say that I would not trust the MOT test to reveal dangerous tyres. I have seen plenty of cars with fairly recent MOTs with tyres that very overdue for changing due to age and wear. Just because a tyre holds air and has nobles around it, doesn't mean it's safe. | ||
| John Grieve New User Username: john116 Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2012 |
If after 11 years your tyres were in such poor shape, they can't have been stored in very good conditions, You could have had the car serviced every 100 miles but that makes no difference to the life of your tyres (unless only at service time were pressures being checked. The blanket scaremongering statements of "do not use old tyres" needs to be balanced with common sense and a visual inspection of the tyres. |
