| Author | Message | ||
     William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 98 Registered: 8-2003 |
This week or next weekend (depending on weather) I am planning to drop the sump on my ’76 Shadow’s transmission. I know from reading of the manual, I would have the later model strainer but is there any advice I can get from those experienced with this procedure? The reason I am doing this is an unwillingness of the car to engage either reverse or low gear when first running (in cold weather) till the transmission has warmed up. Once warm it runs perfect. I plan to look for any signs of damage or burning but am hoping it is just a case of dirty fluid. Thank you in advance, Bill | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.37 |
Dear Bill, Trying to help etc. I might be confused here, however I seem to recall someone telling me some time ago that there was a "superior" (in some way) filter available for the T-400 transmission. I would have thought it difficult to improve on what is basically a "strainer" filter, however I do believe I heard about some "improved" version. Perhaps someone who has experience in this area may further advise. Apparently there is also a so-called "competition" fluid which is used in the "stock/drag" cars but whether this has any benefit,or practical application for street use I know not. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 239 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, I suggest your problem is most likely a failed "O" ring on the fluid pick-up pipe from the filter to the transmission body and hence to the oil pump. When this seal fails you either get problems in fluid pick-up or aeration of the fluid with attendant transmission irregularities. For what it is worth I fitted an after-market drain plug to the pan to allow easy fluid draining - removal of the fluid pan on dropheads requires removal of the body stiffening "X" brace beneath the transmission to facilitate removal of the pan [can the cognescenti tell me how to remove the pan without having to remove the brace - I tried every contortion known to man and a few others besides to avoid the brace without success]. For this reason, I drain the fluid religiously every two years, flush the transmission/torque convertor with fresh oil and drain this before refilling to avoid fluid breakdown reducing filter life. B & M [arguably the best supplier of T400 overhaul kits] recommend the use of Ford TQF transmission fluid instead of GM "Dexron" for street/strip use as it has better "shear" characteristics improving torque convertor effectiveness and positive gear changes under high-load conditions however this situation would only apply to a very small minority of R-R/B drivers [I guess I come into this category as DRH14434 loves to show what it can do to embarass rev-heads who think R-R/B cars are not performance oriented!!]. I have modified my T400 to eliminate the standard inbuilt clutch slip to reduce wear but this is at the expense of smoothness - all gear changes are immediate and positive but can be felt by passengers at any more than gentle acceleration. However, I will not have to replace the clutch plates anywhere near as often as required for the standard specification transmission especially for predominantly city driving. | ||
| Jon Rothwell Unregistered guest Posted From: 202.72.131.230 |
Hi David, I remember that Jag V12 turbo 400 boxes could have the shift improved for better wear (among other things) but have never thought of doing it to a Shadow. How was it done? And is there a source of information on this subject you could point me towards? Bill, I did a fluid change on my transmisson a couple of months ago as it was slow to engage reverse and third when hot. Changing the fluid and filter was dead easy, but it didn't fix my problem. What I did discover is that my shift linkage seemed to be skipping a gear and someone had adjusted it so that it didn't quite go into park properly (it went in just enough to hold the car, sometimes), but did engage drive (sort of). The problem has turned out to be electrical anyway but at least I got a good look inside the tranny. Regards Jon | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 99 Registered: 8-2003 |
John; Better and greater filtering system; I have seen them advertised by race shops or at least external filter kits that claim to be so. Here is another thing that always makes me wonder where those old “snake oil salesmen” from the western movies went, other than Washington and the UN. I would be concern by adding something of this nature without someone else’s firsthand knowledge. David; The modifications you are talking about I think is a “shift kit”. This I have done to other cars when having the transmission rebuilt. I always though of this as something to increase performance on muscle cars, never considered the fact that it would reduce the wear on the clutch plates. On the Ford TQF fluid I am assuming this is different then the Ford F type that was used in the 60’s and 70’s? I have not heard of this but then again the newest Ford I have and do own is my ’73 Mustang matter of fact it is the only Ford I have ever owned. Jon; Glad to hear the procedure is easy! I am fairly certain my problem will turn out to be either low pressure (this is what I am hoping for) due to muck or something else like “O” ring David suggests. Or much worst which will require rebuilding of the transmission, such as bands or clutch plates. Thank you all for your input,will update when I get the sump openned. Regards, Bill | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 146 Registered: 4-2003 |
You guys have it easy in Oz: you can go to the local hardware store and choose between Castrol TQ Dexron II or III in bulk. It's the real difference between GM, Ford and other specs which has become more complicated in recent years. It is interesting that Castrol produce TQ Dexron III, approved by the vehicle manufacturers, for both Ford and GM applications. Also, GM Europe approves TQ Dexron D, previously a Ford-spec fluid "for all GM applications": I assume this excludes US sourced transmissions ?? Ford has since lapsed its TQ Dexron D approval. In TSD6000, Rolls-Royce approved "TQ Dexron II E, Castrol TQ D and Transmax S" for Silver Shadows and Silver Spirits. Question: are Castrol TQ D and Castrol Dexron D the same thing ? Under Texaco, R-R state that "any other Texaco Dexron II Transmission fluid " is approved. Does this include or exclude Dexron II D ? The new version of TQ Dexron D is is TQ Dexron IID. As stated, Ford has since lapsed its approvaly of TQ Dexron D fluids, but TQ Dexron II D it is still approved by GM Europe, Mercedes-Benz and many others. Next quiestion: is TQ Dexron II D OK in our cars ? I understand very well the traditional difference between Ford- and GM-spec fluids. What the approval by Ford and GM of the universal Dexron III suggests, however, is that transmission fluids are finally merging anyhow. How a fluid can satisfy two quite different clutch zake-up specs without a glaring compromise beats me. The reason I ask is that, as I live in Central Europe, Dexron II and Dexron III are difficult to buy except in 1/2 liter bottles at a silly price. I can buy TQ Dexron II D very easily and economically as it is so widely used here. Any comments would be appreciated, especially if we change from one type to the other can the transmission life be reduced (noting the claims in previous posts that Ford-spec will reduce clutch wear, and what about lubrication) ? | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.57 |
Interesting input from all, however although filtration and type/s of fluids have been discussed, what of the cooling aspect being mindful of the cooler fitted by R-R to the T-400 transmission. Said cooler is understood to be of somewhat basic design and was once described by a R-R expert, as "just adequate". Yes.. his opinion only, but as we know, all things are improved over the years and I wonder if one of the "competition" type trans. coolers (cast and finned aluminium body)of similar size/capacity might be a viable alternative if/when replacement of the original is required. Are our original coolers leaking, clogged or otherwise compromised from 30 plus years of service? Having said that, I seem to recall that overheating of automatic transmissions is only an issue in heavy duty/extreme operating conditions, not likely to be encountered with normal use of our cars. Comments please, as I always like to learn. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill Your car's reluctance to get into gear is almost certainly due to hard seals. This is a direct product of age and a very common fault with most transmissions but particularly the GM400. With the transmission cold, fluid leaks past the seals and pressure won't build up or at least slowly. When the warmth is felt the seals soften and all is right with the world. The answer is a complete overhaul which is probably well overdue. Many owners tend to regard auto boxes in the same way as manual boxes. Not advisable. Manual boxes just keep going until something wears out or breaks. The only seal problems are at the front and rear and these only dribble since there is no pressure to worry about. The exception is the pre-Cloud box and the servo shaft seal. Asking a 30 year old automatic box to perform to specs is a bit like asking me to run the 440 yard! John Your concern about coolers clogging is in my experience unwarranted. Short of catastrophic failure and bits and pieces being pumped through the system, it virtually can't happen. What is important though is to observe the condition of the oil as it comes out during a change. If it is very dirty with clutch dust it is wise to flush the system. This takes three people a lot of oil and involves disconnecting the return pipe from the cooler.. One pours the oil in as fast as he can, the other catches it and the third operates the transmission and turns the whole thing off as required. The easier way is to change the oil and give it a good drive for say 500K then drain it again new filters each time. That should clean the whole thing out. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 241 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jon, the modification is very simple and involves removing certain components from within the control valve assembly. Unfortunately I have misplaced the manual which shows how it is done after scanning the information some time ago and will try and track it down for you. Normal operation is easily restored by replacing the components - there is a valve port controlled by a ball-bearing which delays pressure build-up in the clutch piston at gear change points and when this bearing is removed, full system pressure is applied immediately to the clutch piston giving instantaneous plate lock-up. There are further modifications for drag racing applications however these are too harsh for road use. Watch this space! | ||
| Phil Sproston Unregistered guest Posted From: 203.109.249.137 |
Bill and all other RR-B owners - the best oil for automatic in these cars is factory approved Castrol Transmax Z. The up side is it runs cooler, will handle higher temperatures much better and for longer and can operate quieter and smoother than standard dexron oils. I have also been able to do oil changes at 80,000km. The down side is the fluid is Green and when changing for the first time you have to put in at least double the amount to flush the system, and the fluid is expensive. However, it is cheaper than a gearbox rebuild. If this fluid does not fix the gear change problems then a pulldown may be your only option. I have been using this fluid personally for many years under harsh conditions and have found it a great solution. I have found that many automatic transmission specialists, and even Rolls Royce people, don't know or aren't interested in using it. Phil | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Grand Master Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 114 Registered: 8-2003 |
OK, here is the long over due update on my transmission. Sorry for the delay but have been rather busy getting our house ready to put on the market. Wife decided it is time we leave the land of snow and high property tax and move to sunny Florida. At least I will get to use my Shadow on a more regular basis. Back to the transmission, neither fluid / filter change nor “Trans-x” additive helped the cold slip problem. I have reached the conclusion that Bill C. had it right the car went to local transmission shop this AM. Stopped back this afternoon and the transmission was in a zillion pieces already and they where being put through a cleaning system. I will inform you of the out come, as I should have it back either later tomorrow or at the latest Wednesday. In case anyone is interested the quote is U$1,200. Now here is my problem / question. The shop noted that two teeth on the ring gear have minor chips. Albers gave a quote of something like U$600 for a replacement. Shop owner recommended not going this route but rather just letting him grind the chips smooth at an additional cost of zero. So does anyone have a feeling about this? Best regards, Bill ’76 Shadow SRE23726 | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2003 |
'Stoning' these teeth is a Factory recommended procedure on most gears. Go for it! Good luck. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Grand Master Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 115 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thank you all for your advice and thanks Bill for the support on the “stoning” of the teeth. All was done 2.5 days after started and right at the quoted price! Amazing absolutely amazing!  It took this long to post a follow-up because I wanted a chance to drive the car to make sure the problem is gone. And with Wisconsin weather we have had one day dry out of every 7 for the last month or more. I will report that the slip seams to be gone and shifting is as it should be. Shop reported no internal damage to the transmission just a lot of real old and hard seals. Best regards, Bill  | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 204 Registered: 8-2003 |
The problem is back! Hope someone has some advise. Last summer I had the transmission in SRE23726 rebuilt all except the electric shift motor, which has been operating properly. During the tear down there was no unusual wear or damage found. The shop that did the work specializes in transmissions and has done many TH400 transmissions including several Shadows before mine. During the winter the car was used twice when the temp was below freezing both times the car was allowed to warm up for 20 minutes or more before putting into gear. Both times the transmission was sluggish to go into reverse and then same problem going into drive; it felt like the transmission was slipping. Once motion started the gear shifting was OK. However, after about 5 miles of driving the fluid would overheat and fluid would blow out of the vents and dipstick. As stated this only happened when temp was below freezing and car had been sitting. I have talked with the transmission shop and they seem perplexed by the problem also. She will be going back into them next week and before that I was hoping some on this forum might have an idea or two as to the cause. Thank you in advance for your responses. Bill | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 725 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hallo Bill, You may notice that I posted a relevant message or two a few weeks ago under miscellaneous. http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/2815.html?1112611715 The selector linkage is very sensitive, but easily adjusted. I'll bet you a beer that a full turn or so on the selector linkage will solve the problem. The linkage pin should slide in without jockeying, otherwise it needs adjusting. RT. | ||
| Gordon Norris Prolific User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 166 Registered: 2-2005 |
Bill, This may sound bleeding obviously silly, but an incorrect fluid level (too low OR too high) will also do this! To quote and paraphrase from Ron Sessions book: "If a transmissions fluid level is too low the pump will take in air with the fluid. The aerated fluid takes longer to pressurize the hydraulic cicuits...or you may end up with not enough pressure to apply anything. Air in the system may cause an apply valve to partially apply a clutch- the transmission slips and the engine overspeeds...it will run hotter because there is less surface contact to transfer heat. An overfilled transmission can cause just as many problems: not only will fluid spit out the vent or dipstick tube, it will be churned up, leading to-you guessed it-aeration..and all the symptoms above." Sounds like your symptoms, does it not? So, I would check the fluid level properly first. If OK, then do what Richard suggests. If still not right, your repairer should still cover you under warranty for their work I would presume. GN. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 205 Registered: 8-2003 |
Richard; Thanks so much I will pass your idea on to the shop next week. Do you think that the temperature could play a factor in the linkage adjustment? Gordon; Thank you also, the level was checked after the first time this happened (down just a small amount fluid was topped off) and then again after the second time this one blew out more fluid about a half quart was needed. Funny thing is both time was only when temp was below 32 F driving before and after these problem times when temp above 32 F no problem. Thank you both again, I will take your ideas to the shop next week. To all; Is it possible that vacuum could somehow be affected by temperature drop? I know I am grabbing at straws.  Best regards, Bill | ||
| Gordon Norris Prolific User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 167 Registered: 2-2005 |
Bill, It is possible the linkage adjustment is right on a "knife's edge" and the temperature difference is enough to cause a difference via the expansion/contraction in the linkage. The other possibility is water contamination of the transmission fluid. When cold the water will freeze and play havoc. When warm, not so. Check if there is any oil in the coolant water to indicate a leak in the transmission cooler built into the radiator bottom tank. I don't think the cold will affect the vacuum to any great degree. But again, if there is water condensed in the vacuum modulator due to a ruptured diaphragm, it will cause havoc if it freezes. Apart from the above, cold generally makes things stick that shouldn't. So it suggests something is stuck when cold, OK when hot. That should give 'em more ideas to go on! Hope all this helps, Cheers, GN. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 726 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gordon, Bill, Agreed about oil-coolant mixing and levels. My point is that if the transmission slips due to bad linkage adjustment, it will be slow to engage and will overheat in minutes as Bill describes. Instant strawberry milkshake, even in freezing ambients. That's where the promise of beer comes from. I would hope to be able to trust a rebuilder to check for a cracked pickup or (plastic) pressure pipe from the pump inside the transmission. I had that once by the way. Even though the transmission functioned perfectly, it frothed out from the breather/filler. Bill's seals must be new, so I would not expect them to be hardened unless severely overheated. You never know for sure though. Of course, a good rebuilder will stand by its work. I would rule out vacuum / modulator issues for now. RT. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 399 Registered: 4-2003 |
I very cleverly lost/leftout/forgot the 'O' ring at the top of the plastic pipe in the Spur when changing the fluid. Got about a mile down the road and nearly had a heart attack when volumes of smoke poured out of the grille. What was happening the pump sucked a bit of air with each mouthfull of fluid and eventually spat the lot out into the sump and up the dip stick tube and over the exhaust manifold. The force was sufficient to lift the dip stick partially out of the tube. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Prolific User Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 206 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thanks all! I will take the ideas to the shop on Monday. Yes, they are standing behind it as they gave a 12-month national and 18-month local full warranty. It seems (from what I am reading) that the most likely reason is low fluid level. This is increased by cold as the fluid is condensed till it warms up. This would explain why this problem only occurred when temp is below freezing. If this is the problem then the question the shop must answer is: How the Transmission lost fluid during less then 1500 miles of driving, since rebuild? Richard yes, I will request that they also check the linkage. They will be doing a complete fluid flush next week. The shop owner feels that as the problem only occurred twice, the fluid did not look bad and total miles driven for both occurrences was less then 10 there should be now internal damage requiring them to drop and rebuild the transmission again. As it is shifting great other than these two times I think I am in agreement with him. Thanks again, Bill |
