| Author | Message | ||
     James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2008 |
Morning All, I have noticed over the long and HORRIBLY humid summer we have just had, that it can take an agonising 30-60 seconds before the blower fans blow cold air out the bullseyes in the Bentley.... this only happens if the interior of the car is very hot or the car has been left standing in hot muggy conditions. I am aware of the '13 second delay' the system has to give the system time to chill down the matrix so as to not blow hot muggy air out. Though frankly at times its a tad too long to wait for cool relief... it does not occur when the car is stone cold. The system engages straight away and yes you can pretty much count to 10 and away it goes, blowing AC. The 'extended delay' only happens when you have left the car warm for a while and not all the time so its one of those 'intermittant' things.... Has anyone else expirenced this? Any opinions on perhapes how if any chance to override this pause and at least get air moving....???? The system works perfectly through all its phases from what I can tell, its simply this 'pause' that is sometimes quite excrutiatiing to sit through while it 'decides' when its ready to deliver air.... Cheers James | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2070 Registered: 4-2003 |
If you tell us your chassis number (we can't remember everyone's), I can post you a patch. I seem to remember <<86efi>>, but that could be year of manufacture or model year. The climate control changed completely for the 1987 model year. How do you want it overridden ? You may override the startup delay permanently or by a switch. RHT. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2008 |
Thanks Richard, The chassis numbers to my cars are on my profile if you click my name they are listed there. I'm referring to the Bentley not my Rolls. Its SCBZP03AXKCH27595. I am suspecting it may even be a dodgy Relay??? for Fan speeds?? What do you think Richard? Cheers J | ||
| Gus Brogden Frequent User Username: gus Post Number: 68 Registered: 2-2008 |
Is the '13 second startup delay' timed, or is it thermostaticly controlled? If its controlled by temperature, ie, the coil needs to reach a certain temp before the blower gets activated, there could be a chance that the system is low on refrigerant and just taking longer to chill the coil and reach its cut in temp. Im sure one of you guys out there would know what controls the delay. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2009 |
Richard, The delay override would be a welcome thing for my Wraith IIs and Turbo RL. They are 1978, 1979 and 1990 model cars. Many thanks Omar | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2072 Registered: 4-2003 |
To elimate delays on fan startup – SYII and SZ Cars SZ cars Chassis 20,000 onwards For these cars, the modification will ensure that the fans start as soon as the compressor starts. One 1n4007 / EM513 etc diode is needed. The diode stops the compressor from being activated inadvertently at all times whenever the fans are blowing. See Page 6 of: http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz87/20kfantemp.pdf Connect the diode between Pin 86 of Relay 38 and Pin 86 of Relay 40. It has the same effect as connecting the diode between Pins 2 and 7 on the 18 pin connector of the right hand side of the Climate Control microprocessor ECU. The Cathode (k) of the diode, the end with a stripe, goes to Relay 40 pin 86 (ECU RH pin 2) This may be tried with a diode connected in a wire plugged into the sockets with the relay, be spliced underneath with a jumper, or fitted with a selector switch in a convenient place. Diodes: http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/diodes.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SY II and early SZ cars to Chassis 16930 On these cars, the connection from the starter circuit and oil pressure switch to the timer in the climate control electronics needs to be disconnected. See Pages 1 and 6 of: http://rrtechnical.info/SY/TSD4200/c/c4.pdf and pages 2 & 6 of: http://rrtechnical.info/SY/TSD4200/c/c9.pdf The early SZ are the same. Disconnect the Yellow/Black striped wire (YB) at the fan speed module. Do this either with a switch or by opening the connector (ie on-demand or permanently). Note to disconnect the wire ONLY at the fan speed module, that is to the lower part of the diagramme Page 2. I have circled it below. That will ensure that the compressor is inhibited until engine oil pressure is reached and therefore not overload the starter motor. SYII and Early SZ - Pages 2 and 6 of http://rrtechnical.info/SY/TSD4200/c/c9.pdf   | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2073 Registered: 4-2003 |
A quick ps on the SYII and early SZ cars: there are two YB wires at the fan speed module. The one you want to disconnedct is a thin control wire. The other is a thick power wire carrying all the fan current. RHT. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1221 Registered: 4-2003 |
Electronics to me are akin to poltergeists and prestodigitators but thanks to Richard and a few others, those in need of this information, including some owners, regardless of any club membership can use this it to maintain their cars and hopefully forestall the dreadful decision to declare their car 'no longer economical to maintain! Can I point out that the Technical Library and the people who advise from this site are the creation of and members of the Rolls-Royce Owners' Club of Australia? We provide a service that is unique in the world which is not restricted to members' associations. I speak for all of us when I say that our intent is to preserve the cars as best we can rather than promote centres for social exercise! | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2008 |
Hi there, Not sure what you mean re promoting centres for Social Exercise Bill? In my case I have just started to undertake social exercise again to reduce my girth so I am here to maintain my cars for as long as I can... LOL... Ok back to topic, Richard again your electronics and engineering mind confounds my rather dull one when it comes to matters of this sort. However after installing 4 new Bosch relays for fan 1,2,3,4 in the AC compartment control behind the HMO reservoiurs the 'long pause' has been cured. After the engine is fired, 2-3 seconds later I hear the ac compressor engage and about 7-8 seconds later hey presto the blower fans are a blowing cold air at me.... I tested it tonight after taking it for a good drive to get the car hot and no long 60 second pauses when restarting... I am suspecting a relay failure or one getting a bit hot. I will say the 4 I replaced were not Bosch, they were tyco?? and therefore may not have been up to the job. Richard I appreciate your advice though, it is interesting and I thank you. Cheers all soon to be a little lighter J.... :o) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2074 Registered: 4-2003 |
James, WARNING – you need to modify the circuit to be safe with alternative relays. Tyco are fine in most cases. Tyco is of course a huge global supplier of electronic components, US-based, but with manufacturing everywhere from Germany to China. Don't leave those relays as they are. They have surge suppressors, NOT freewheel diodes. When a relay de-energises, there is stored energy in its coil. The energy is quenched by the suppressor, limiting the reverse spike to about 18V. That’s OK in most applications, but definitely not on the R-R/B climate control. That -18V spike can fry your microprocessor controller and cost you thousands. No joke. The particular 0332.204.122 Bosch relay specified uses a freewheel diode instead. The diode limits the reverse spike to 0.6V to protect the electronics. Very few relays of any brand use the diode solution, so beware. The fix is easy. Solution - it's simple but vital. Fit a freewheel diode externally. Connect a diode (1N4001, EM513, cost not much more than 4 cents each, buy them by the dozen at Jaycar) to the relay base between pins 85 (Anode, a, no stripe end) and pin 86 (Cathode, k, striped end of the diode. That will ensure that any relay will work and not fry your car. RHT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2075 Registered: 4-2003 |
Here is a snap of a few relays. Note the diode symbol on the metal Bosch relays, showing that this type has an internal freewheel diode suppressor. The black one is a generic one, in this case made by Tyco and sold in a supermarket for $3.75. Note that its suppressor type is not shown, but it has a standard bipolar suppressor which kicks in at +/-18V or so. Otherwise it is a standard 20/30A 12V automotive relay with pins 30, 85, 86, 87 and 87a. Fine in most applications, but a disaster in some others. Just fit an external freewheel diode and be safe. RHT.  | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2008 |
Hi Richard, Just so I'm clear, I replaced the tyco ones which were not genuine with BOSCH factory 152's. I cannot get the metal 122's anymore. I was told the plastic covered BOSCH 152's ones have superseeded the 122's. Please see attached photos, all the numbers and pins are exactly the same as the metal bosch with what looks to be the diode symbol. Can you tell me if these are going to be ok? Again, i did not get 'supermarket ones' i got what was specified from flying spares as the 'right' ones which are factory approved ones.... are these ok??? I hope you can make them out they are a devil to photograph clearly... Cheers J    | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2009 |
Richard, Thanks for the detailed info regarding delay relief. Omar | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2077 Registered: 4-2003 |
James, Perhaps you could give me the full series number for that Bosch relay. Not all Bosch relays have freewheel diodes. Some are fine, and some not. Fore example, if you see the Bosch data below, the mini relay type 0 332 209 152 has a freewheel diode and is quite suitable. Type 0 332 209 151 does not have a freewheel diode and is quite unsuitable unless an external diode is fitted to the socket. Tyco relays follow the same pattern, and are no better or worse. Given that yours is a Bosch type ending in 152, I am almost certain that it is of the correct type. The last digit gives the quenching type, a 2 for a freewheel diode in this situation. The other intermediate numbers define other parameters including the package, plastic this time. ps: I have never had any trouble buying the metal type over the counter in Europe, but perhaps they are not so easy to find in Australia. In reality, the plastic ones are better sealed. They just look cheap. RHT.   | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2008 |
Hi Richard, thanks for that, that's a huge relief then. I can confirm they are all 0 332 209 152's and the diagram on the side of them is exactly the same as in the bottom example of your post. I was trying to photograph it but as its a light colour plastic its a bugger for the digital camera to pick up clearly. I don't care what they look like now, I used to mind, as I did like the metal 122 ones but UK told me they have been supersceeded by the 152's. Cheers J |
