| Author | Message | ||
     Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2013 |
Hi, My recently purchased Turbo R appears to be running considerably rich as found with a noticable fuel smell when backing into my garage and confirmed by friends who commented on a pungent fuel aroma after following the car for some distance over the weekend. Although I have no frame of reference the fuel consumption does also seem high, even for such a large engined car. The vehicle is still somewhat in the black art territory for me so apologies if this is covered ground but I'm hoping for some advice and assistance on troubleshooting the cause. My car is an 89MY UK spec car so no cats, and although I have been unable to confirm it visually at this point I gather this means it will have K-Motronic fuel injection rather than KE2-Jetronic. My experience with both these systems is limited, and I gather the implementation on these vehicles is a rather complex one anyway. My car idles fine, and on the move performs well aside from a light missfire feeling on light throttle on the highway and occasionally on acceleration. I am wondering if this is perhaps a symptom of the over rich running perhaps fouling the plugs however. I have ordered a set of GR4IX plugs from the USA, however would appreciate any assistance offered in terms of troubleshooting. My initial suspicion is a leaking cold start injector, however would it be expected for this to cause a high idle speed too? My idle is marginally lumpy, but certainly doesn't feel high. So, where to start? And thanks in advance! Regards, Alistair | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 289 Registered: 5-2008 |
any number of things here Allister! : Cold Start yes could be and issue : Injectors gummer up : Fuel meter head blocked : fuel pressure sensor inopporative : Fuel pumps iffy... : ECU issues.... K Motronic is reasonably bulletproof and mine thankfully has never given me a days trouble. Impossible without seeing the car to actually determine what this could be accurately but the above is a few starting points. If you are not mechanically minded seek out a good RR & B specialist that is and start crossing stuff off the list. Buying new plugs while fine will not rectify a poorly operating ECU and Fuel injection system....this maybe just throwing your money away...wait and have the cause diagnosed. As for lumpy idle...Most Turbos do have a slight quiver on idle but it should not be 'lumpy' and puffing out black fuel rich smoke...this is not correct. I know of cars that have had their Motronic ECU 'mucked around with' and it does stuff them up a bit. They should be left well alone as the ECU has fine adjustment built in and does correct minor issues itself. AS stated above start checking or have someone who knows look at the above and go through tech library on this forum and read up on some of the causes for poor performance and poor economy. AS for fuel consumption...well it does depend on how heavy your right foot is...but as a general yard stick for you, my Turbo does about 12-14l per 100klm on highway and city if im heavy footed you can see these figues double!! but as freeway cruisers they are reasonably economical actually and are a fair amount better than their naturally aspirated counterparts. Good luck J | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2012 |
Alistair, The symptoms you mention could be caused by a missing cylinder. I'd go right back to basics, remove all the spark plugs and carefully inspect them to see if one isn't oiled up. Then I would run a compression test on all cylinders to check there isn't a cracked valve. Only then would I start looking at the ecu/injectors etc. | ||
| Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2013 |
Thanks guys, I am reasonably proficient mechanically at the basics, but have to admit working on this car is rather daunting compared to the Jags and Rovers that have been my hobby staple so far. Would like to at least attempt to resolve by myself first before heading down the specialist route but suspect with this car I may seek external specialist assistance more often than I normally would. To be clear the idle is just that slight quiver and occasional minor stumble, certainly no puffing of smoke or greatly noticeable misfire. Will pop the plugs out and do a compression test as suggested first of all to give me a better starting point. Thanks | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 290 Registered: 5-2008 |
agree Geoff! back to basics is the best starting point. Alister fyi your car had twin distributor digital ingnition. The dizzys have a little drive belt in them that needs to be periodically replaced. Its not expensive but they can badly deteriorate and either snap which then renders the V8 a sorry performing 4 cylinder or the little betl can resemble a mat of string...I have seen this first hand! I doubt this is your issue but be aware of this FYI. Geoff gives good advice, if the plugs are fouled thats a good place to start. My advice is say 'further down the track' as it were..... good luck J | ||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2008 |
Alistair, did you read out the error messages stored in the engine ECU? This would be my first step. There may be a lot of reasons, one is: The air flow plate/sensor potentiometer uses to wear down around the idle position sending (among others) wrong data to the PCM resulting in wrong acting of the EHA which is the one that varies the fuel flow. Udo | ||
| Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2013 |
Hi, To update on this, I've pulled the spark plugs and they were looking a bit on the worn side, not a huge amount of electrode left. Compression is all good across all cylinders, showing roughly 150 on each with no great degree of variation. They were reasonably uniform in colour, although the 2 front ones on the passenger side did appear slightly wetter looking than the others. The air filter did however appear in rather a poor state so I've replaced that and fitted new plugs and initial signs of smooth running being restored are positive, although I am not at this point sure if it is still smelling rich. How would I go about retrieving ECU error codes? Would be interesting to see if there's anything showing there too. Thanks, Alistair | ||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2008 |
If your car has the KE-Motronic, you switch on the ignition and wait for the "check engine" process. Then you press down the tow buttons "trip" and "cancel" and at the same time the red button in the fuse compartment. Then you wait 10 sec, "check engine" goes on and the blink codes start with the start signal which is one flash of 2,5 seconds, followed by the blink codes consisting of 4 flashes each, a set of 4 flashes is seperated from the next one by one flash of 2,5 seconds. If it works correctly, the meaning of the code appears in the display by text and by symbol. The next set of flashes is activated by pressing the red button for more than 4 seconds. Regards - Udo | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 292 Registered: 5-2008 |
the tech library has the fact sheet on how to interrogate your motronic or 'check codes'. Quite interesting actually to go through the proceedure. To reset it though if you cannot be bothered stuffing around with the blinking lights, your car is a first edition with motoronic and will gve you only the codes in blink format via the 'check engine' light, not pixilated text words...simply flick the battery isolate switch in the boot to off for 15 seconds and then switch it back on. This will refresh the motronic and erase any stored 'error blink codes'. glad it seems your issues are solved rather quickly Alister! Cheers J | ||
| Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2013 |
Thanks, will have a read and see what I can do. I don't have any text display in mine, rather the traditional warning light setup to the right of the speedo. I think my enthusiasm at the issue being resolved may have been premature, no running issues yet but the car was still smelling distinctly rich when I backed it into the garage yesterday. Will pop the new plugs out and see what they are looking like after 50km or so of driving. Rgds, Alistair | ||
| Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2013 |
Ahhh, unfortunately on further inspection this does not appear to be an avenue open to me, my car has no diagnostic button. I suspect this is a feature only fitted to catalyst equipped vehicles. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 295 Registered: 5-2008 |
are you sure Alister you have no diagnostic button? One of the 'new' at the time, features of motronic engine managment system, was the powertrain operations and automatic fine tune diagnosis through check codes. The button is a small black push in jobbie next to the fuse box arrangement under the glove box. In earlier cars it was black as in my 89 Turbo RL, later cars they made it red. It should be there, if indeed your car has motronic engine mgmt of course. As you are looking at the fuse board with the cover dropped down you will need to be in the passenger footwell to see it mind you....look up to the the left, not actually on the board itself but on the top left side right under the bottom of the glove box there should be square black push button its not even labled as to what it is. Its thus easy to miss if you dont know what it is....I did for years till I discovered and thought wonder what this button is for..... Like my car yours will not have the screen instead the error codes will blink out on the 'check engine' light on the warning light cluster. No big deal, you just gotta count em and the cross reference them to the fact sheet in the tech library as to what the error is or was. As Ive said many times in relation to Motronic Engine Management on our later cars, it is a terrrificly reliable system and requires not a single touch or 'tune up' KE3 plus digital ingnition never requires manual tune up and thus NO fiddling with it ever, the car will and should correct any small imbalances in idle, mixture and performance. Its so rare and in fact ive never heard of the motronic ECU's giving trouble on their own. Sure there might be cases out there but i do know of cases where people have fiddled with the ECU boxes and stuffed things up....as Ive said before, if its working fine then leave your motronic ECU well alone! J | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2008 |
ahh Ive just checked, your car as you say is an 88 Turbo R yes Allister? if so it will have KE2 Jettroninc rather than KE3 aka Motronic....MY89 cars were Motronic. Do check the panel as ive described above, if yours has motronic you will easily be able tell as the ECU will be under a heat guard in the engine bay on the drivers side bulkhead behind the suspension turret. Pop the 3 screws and you can lift the sheild away and see a relay section and the ECU, it wull clearly say motronic on it. good luck! j | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 297 Registered: 5-2008 |
as for the smell of running rich....dont confuse the smell of a normal cold start with excessive unburned black smoke.... cold start if you reverse out and get a wiff of the exhausts while cold start idle is going will of course have a 'fuelly smell' it won't smell like raw unburnt petrol mind you but yes it will have a rich smell till the engine is warm and cold start is not active, this should take no more than 30 seconds from dead cold. you should see your idle drop from a fast cold idle of 800rpm to 550rpm warm. Or thereabouts, Turbos; do quiver a bit anywhere from 550 to 600rpms is quite normal.... THe car should never chuff out constant sooty smoke, this is wrong and indicates mixture WAY to rich! motronic will faix all this up anyway so its virtually impossible for our cars to fall out of tune and adjustment with a correctly operating motronic engine mgmt system. A faint puff of blue smoke and I mean faint bit on cold start up...is however quite normal now as our cars age...its only a bit of oil residue being burnt off the exhuast side of the turbo compressor. anyway ill leave you alone now to investgate things A! J | ||
| Alistair Riddell Experienced User Username: ariddell Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2013 |
Thanks for your help James, the advice is greatly appreciated. This was when reversing back into the garage after a decent drive so when the car is warm, there's just still that bit of a smell of exhaust that you would never get on a modern catalyst equipped car. My car does not smoke so no issues seen on that front, it's purely the odour that is noticeable. Now I have to confess not really knowing how strong a 6.75l non-cat car should smell anyway, it may just be the nature of the beast rather than an issue. I've done some further digging in the locations you've mentioned and can confirm 100% that my ECU is Motronic, and also that there definitely isn't a diagnostic button anywhere that I can find around the fusebox. I've uploaded a couple of pics to photobucket to confirm if I am looking in the correct place: ECU: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/ariddell/IMGP0043_zpsce39d745.jpg No Button Here: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/ariddell/IMGP0045_zpsf1911ed0.jpg With my car being a UK spec 88 built MY89 non-cat car I suspect it differs from the Australian delivered cat equipped models at the same time. Thanks, Alistair | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 299 Registered: 5-2008 |
hmmm go more left are you sure there isnt a small black push button tucked up to the side further left of the red interlock button? good that its got motronic! its fantastic, I could be wrong re the diagnostic button on the UK cars im not sure...but I know from 89 MY cars and on all had on board diagnostics. Look more left mate and see if there is not a push button hiding up there out of the way.... As to non cat car...ahhh well yes it will be a bit 'rich' smelling...Again I can only offer advice as I cannot see it but if no cats and UK spec cars didnt get much pollution gear so compared to a modern car yeah i reckon you will smell a slight differnce.... | ||
| Alistair Riddell Experienced User Username: ariddell Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2013 |
Yeah, definitely no button for a diagnostic facility on mine. Had a read of the fuel injection sections in the tech library and it confirms the following: "On cars fitted with catalytic converters the K-Motronic system also provides an 'on-board' self diagnostic facility." So cat cars only alas, shame as would have been nice to see if it had anything stored. | ||
| michael vass Yet to post message Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi All I have an '89 turbo r , seems just like yours clean plugs,exhaust and oil ,not too bad consumption but when I back it into the garage it smells pretty rich to me! (stinging eyes) Did you ever resolve your "rich" smell? Cheers Mike |
